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The Orlando Shootings

Mon, Jun 20 2016 2:55 AM (100 replies)
  • thesupernova
    7,331 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 8:22 AM

    I most readily agree with 

    The old saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people"...,however 

    the amount of guns owned in my home country is staggering.

    Map of civilian guns per capita by country to the "Small Arms Survey 2007"[1]

    Yes ,I did open the discussion to the strength of the NRA

    The disproportionate ownership of guns .

    The antiquated understanding of the 2nd Amendment.

    BUT please don't lose sight nor diminish the tragedy at hand .

    Most of you have done that and i am much appreciative.

    Some have lost sight of the spirit by which I posted this thread.

    I was particularly moved by the sincerity and the respect that Anderson Copper gave to the fallen in his broadcast that I had originally posted.

    Hopefully a few of you have taken the time to watch .

    I was very moved .

    God Bless and care for one another.

    XXOXOO A;;ie




  • MBaggese
    15,367 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 10:04 AM

    Wheels65:
    I do not own an AK-47 or an M-16, because to do so would be against the law in the United States (undoubtedly a surprise to some of you, because both go full AUTOMATIC and that is illegal without special licenses).

     

    Not so, I'm unsure about M16's, but AK's are legal when only made as a Semi-Auto...there are other things as well to keep from (here in Ca.) registering them as AW's as well.

  • ct690911
    7,195 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 11:36 AM

    @Allie;

    Thoughtful post and on point. The NRA does contribute a lot of money to various campaigns and this, I guess, implies the candidate is somewhat beholding to them...just as with any large contributor to the super pacs (Banks, Insurance companies, etc). I know candidates are supposed to be arms length from these donors...but.

    I am a conservative thinker, but Trump comes off as a blithering idiot much of the time, and his response to the Orlando massacre was no exception. The GOP leadership has a mess on its' hands. 

    I am no Clinton fan. She already has aides pleading the 5th and lawyered to the hilt during FBI interviews...but she is probably the "safer" choice to sit in the white house. She is the devil we know.

    ct

  • Wheels65
    744 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 3:44 PM

    This is NOT the place for this discussion!!!!
    This FORUM is supposed to be about WGT & GOLF.
    I was willing to let this whole thing die until mkrizan86 had to bloviate -
    NO A$$HOLE I am not a racist (& for, the life of me, I cannot even guess what race I impugned with my statement - unless it was the duck race (this charge of "RACIST" is bull$hit, mindless, meaningless and over WAY over employed). What you quoted is a statement of FACT from my life.  You, obviously, have no idea what 23, 35, 57 and 100+ mm AA tracers nor SAM-2s look like from the receiving end.  I quit hunting after I returned from experiencing it (from the receiving end).  (CLUE - NOT A JOKE!)
    The point about the clip size was to emphasize that our (U.S.) Founding Fathers were foresighted enough to provide a mechanism by which our Constitution could be changed as times and attitudes changed. They did not know about "drones" back then - either.
    The 2nd Amendment was incorporated into our Bill of Rights as a DIRECT result of experience with the government of GREAT BRITAIN in the 1700's. Look it up!!
    No one, except, Islamist nuts are celebrating the Orlando shootings any more than they celebrated the Brussels bombings or the problems that the UK is having with your own Islamists right now.
    The carbine that Mateen used did not fire until HE PULLED THE TRIGGER.  Doubtless, this point will pass (far) over the heads of a number of you not raised in America.

    Peaceful people do not resort to firearms to settle our differences.  With the number of guns in the hands of peaceful Americans, if we REALLY had a gun problem over here, you would know it!

    END OF MESSAGE/S on this subject.  --  OUT!!

  • mkrizan86
    1,866 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 4:19 PM

    Wheels65:
    NO A$HOLE I am not a racist (& for, the life of me, I cannot even guess what race I impugned with my statement - unless it was the duck race (this charge of "RACIST" is bull$hit, mindless, meaningless and over WAY over employed). What you quoted is a statement of FACT from my life. 

    Wheels65:
    I quit hunting after I returned from experiencing it (from the receiving end).  (CLUE - NOT A JOKE!)

    Your exact statement was this:

    Wheels65:
    I have not hunted anything since my time in Vietnam - funny how your perspective changes when the "game" shoots back.

    You actually think it's appropriate to call (and compare) the people of Vietnam "game"? And you don't find that to be racist? At least that's how I read it. As I said, if it was an attempt to be funny, it failed miserably. But sure, you can call me a$$hole for pointing it out, I've been called worse.

     

    Back to the gun issue, I personally believe firearms should not be allowed to buy or own to anyone, who's not a cop or a soldier, with the exception of hunters, but with strict rules, what they can own. The notion, that "then only the bad guys will have them" and the black market has only little merit. I come from a small country (not the UK, despite of my flag, so I have no idea if the UK has a muslim issue or not), where guns are simply not allowed to any but the ones I listed above. We have less than 5 shootings a year on average. In the whole country. Cause even if the bad guy has a gun, he's much less likely to shoot you, if he knows you DON'T have 1.

  • ct690911
    7,195 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 4:44 PM

    "Cause even if the bad guy has a gun, he's much less likely to shoot you, if he knows you DON'T have 1."

    Canada also has very strict gun laws, ergo less murders and violence by that means. To your point ^^^, most of the mass killings generally involve heavily armed individual(s) attacking those they know to be defenceless...During my tours of duty, terrorists continually hit "soft" targets. In the US, look at Sandy Hook, 9/11, Oklahoma, San Bernardino, Aurora theatre massacre, Boston Marathon bombing, Orlando...list goes on. Most of these reprobates are cowards...if they know they are facing a defenceless group, this simply emboldens them. Being unarmed may prevent a robber from shooting you, but not a terrorist.

    I'm not advocating guns. There have been many accidental injuries and deaths that wouldn't have occurred if there were less guns. So, I am fully in favor of gun control...I am also aware that the bad guys find a way. If not a gun, then a homemade bomb using legal materials, driving a car into a crowd at full speed, etc. 

    It's a dangerous world. Not sure all the laws and restrictions imaginable will stop these whack jobs.

    ct

  • fatdan
    3,379 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 7:54 PM

    mkrizan86:

     

    You actually think it's appropriate to call (and compare) the people of Vietnam "game"? And you don't find that to be racist? At least that's how I read it.

    Thats not what he meant by any stretch of the imagination,Ya had to be there to comment that strongly, if you seen what they did to their own people much less ours(especially Green Berets), you would have called them much worse believe me....

    I hated them for many years until I started seeing the big picture as I got older!

    And whom ever thinks criminals would be less likely to kill you if they knew you were unarmed be advised, they don't kill you out of fear, they don't kill you because it is Thursday, they do it because they like it and they have been brought up by the criminals that raised them "not to leave any witnesses", geeeeeezus, what's wrong with some people!

    The one statistic nobody has mentioned, most likely because it conveniently isn't kept, is how many crimes have been "thwarted" because the victim was armed, like the very old lady who is still alive because she shot up her house trying to hit an intruder a few months back!

    Remember Criminals dont look at crime the same way Victims do!

     

  • TracyMax
    2,361 Posts
    Wed, Jun 15 2016 8:12 PM

    Probably better we stick to talking golf.

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Thu, Jun 16 2016 12:15 AM

    fatdan:

    mkrizan86:

     

    You actually think it's appropriate to call (and compare) the people of Vietnam "game"? And you don't find that to be racist? At least that's how I read it.

    Thats not what he meant by any stretch of the imagination,Ya had to be there to comment that strongly, if you seen what they did to their own people much less ours(especially Green Berets), you would have called them much worse believe me....

    I hated them for many years until I started seeing the big picture as I got older!

    As much as I will agree with Mkrizan on best not to have guns circulating I must say on that point I never took Wheels as racist or anything close.  We all deal with the brevity of the written word, and non of us are writing thought out affidavits.  On that point my opinion, given whether wanted or not :) , is move past it quickly.

    Apart from losing my entire regiment on exercise in Germany there was little note to my short military career:)...If those then two young guards from 7th Armored American Tank ever read this thanks again for the coffee:)...I pulled up in my rover and they kindly were fine with me blasting my 8 metre mast whilst providing me with a nice cup of coffee.  Regiment sent me back to the now deserted last location in the dark LOL.........Army Lorry pulls in with a co driver slipping in / out consciousness.  At least I had my radio for that, and maybe saved me from another rollicking LOL........Seriously thanks for your service the both of you, and on this point I never took anything Wheels said as wrong.

    I don't think the 2nd amendment applies at all these days.  As I have it it was set up to stop governments getting too powerful, but it was done with muskets at the cutting edge.

    Out of the revolutionary war the 13 colonies of the New World were a huge loss.  People can forget France finished that conflict on it's knees and Jamaica (jewel in the crown) was kept, and Britain got the seas unchallenged until  WW1.  Heck the French revolution was arguably a direct consequence of it.  An enormous loss nonetheless, and fortunately things went the right way with Jefferson etal dividing Church and State, and setting freedom as the goals.  Could have gone with a more feudal model (v easily by copying an example or three from around the globe).  Trade flourished and the rest is history.

    Some if this is plain cultural.  I have to accept the fact that had I grown up in the US I would no doubt be as pro gun as anyone.  Americans would be as anti as me, most likely, if they grew up in UK........Getting passed that is what I try to do, and maybe I never fully will.  Neither way is ever going to be 100% right for everyone same as any law.  In the end any law is just a set of ideas for the good of all generally, not always perfect per individual.

    Trade stats all day I also appreciate.  One I saw (and not googling this) was Japan where you are more likely to get struck by lightning than be involved in gun crime.  USA it's up there with Road Traffic Accidents, and that's a gulf wide difference.  I would say America has a huge gun issue, and it's a model no one else wants to copy.  All good as you guys have the ballot box same as us, and makes your choices there same as elsewhere that chooses not to touch the model with a barge pole.  EDIT: I did not miss the guns preventing part.  I think the video posted sums up my views as much as anything, and a link here would too (better).  Sadly the next time is guaranteed soon way I see it, and all the guns don't kill mantra going won't change that part...

    My opinion and good luck to all...

     

  • mkrizan86
    1,866 Posts
    Thu, Jun 16 2016 3:17 PM

    Jimbog1964:
     I would say America has a huge gun issue, and it's a model no one else wants to copy.  All good as you guys have the ballot box same as us, and makes your choices there same as elsewhere that chooses not to touch the model with a barge pole.

    Fully agree.

    Apologies to Wheels, if I misunderstood what he meant. English is my 3rd language (albeit I don't suck at it).The way I heard it was he compared people to game and that does not (and never will) sit well with me.

    But as long as we're offering examples, how's this for a country, that doesn't allow firearms to anyone, but cops, army, registered hunters (hunting rifles only) or licensed body guards:

    - there was never a single mass shooting in my country (apart from communists killing colaborators and a few other differenttly thinking folks after the II. WW)

    - we have from 5-10 murders on avg per year (granted, there's only 2 million of us), less than half gun related

    - you can go out at night in the "roughest" part of any town, and the worst that can happen is you get a few bruises and even for that to happen, you basically need to be asking for it.

     

    Nothing in the world though can stop a nutter, longing for revenge of sort, or terrorists to do what they do. Regulation or not, it doesn't affect anything of this sort.

    These are acts of maniacs, who leave scars on everyone involved, their families, friends and good people in general. And they should never happen. I should've gotten used to hearing about them by now, but I never have. They still stir me. Like I said before, my heart goes out to anyone affected by this senseless act of violence.

     

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