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Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Wed, Aug 27 2014 2:47 AM (74 replies)
  • KenZarley
    14 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 8:39 PM

    Dear Victoria,

    My 1 putt % is based on my entire experience playing ranked rounds from the time I was a beginner to now.  If i could parse out my one putt Pct since using my distance calculator it might be better.  I played a practice round with Nashkurt today.  I also play every course in a rotation so I am better on BPB,Kiawah. amd St.A's than I am on Merion, Oakmont ,or Olympic.  I know that if you add one putt % + 2 Putt % i am at 94%.  and i can say i am usually in with 12-15 putts per round of nine and these days and usually 11-12 on BPB. Which is closer to 50 % one putts.  

    It is fun to watch everyone's responses and to stimulate conversation.

    Love all the people.  There is room for all of us I think.

    KZ

  • MukilteoMike1
    43 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 12:00 AM

    Here's a reproduction of a special bonus hidden in a section that most can't see...Incredibly Helpful Hints From Responders In This Thread

    1--What calculation do you use for putting distance when going down steep hills? HINT--Leave your approach shot 2 feet directly below the hole.

    2--I'm struggling with sand saves. I can't seem to find a consistent best way out. HINT--Hit the greens, not the bunkers.

    3--For those barely reachable in 2 par 4s, are there any tips to get maximum yardage on approaches into the wind? HINT--Buy balls with the highest distance ratings.

    4--Those big breaker putts under 10 feet are killing me. Help! HINT--Hit the putt to the bottom of the hole. That almost always works.

  • fatdan
    3,379 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 1:19 AM

    Yeah, the truth is a b!tch sometimes isn't it!

    Here's another gem not hidden so well, your posts are par for letting your ego impede your ability to listen...

    Here's another one, did it ever cross your  mind that since there are several different formulas for wind, break, and distance, others smarter than you have tried to come up with one for putts 12" downhill, and the best they came up with in 6 1/2 yrs. is "HINT--Leave your approach shot  below the hole."...maybe they know something huh?


  • MukilteoMike1
    43 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 6:06 AM

    fatdan:

    Here's another gem not hidden so well, your posts are par for letting your ego impede your ability to listen...

    Thanks for, yet again, offering a post with no helpful information.  I'm more than willing to at least listen to someone/anyone who attempts to answer a question.  You aren't doing that. 

    If I had the ego you're referring to, why would I be soliciting information to better my game?  I'd think I was above anyone else and wouldn't care what anyone else said.  But that's not me.  Not even close.  I know there are many players with better ways of approaching putting distance.  You very well may be one of those players, but you don't provide any useful info.  (FYI-we all know it's better to be close to the hole and directly beneath it when putting. For us mere mortals, we can't always hit it precisely where we want to.  As the saying goes, though, we have to play our foul balls, which is why the question at hand is a valid one.)

    Here are my baseline computations...

    Uphill putts--Green Speed Factor x (Distance in feet + elevation climb in inches + 1)

    Downhill putts--Green Speed Factor x [Distance in feet - {(elevation drop in inches - .5)/ Green Speed Factor}]

    As I stated earlier, my green speed factors are .73 for championship 13, .77 for tourney 12 and .82 for tourney 11. 

    Also as I admitted earlier, I know there are flaws with these numbers, but they're a better beginning point for downhill putts than the oft-quoted feet minus drop estimation. 

     

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 7:34 AM

    MukilteoMike1:
    I'm more than willing to at least listen to someone/anyone who attempts to answer a question.  You aren't doing that. 

    Well if you can't see it then the end of it.  One of the the beauties of this game is that speeds will vary (yes V Fast in one round different to another and so on), and you need to adjust.

    I only have your WGT stats to go by.  Accepting they move slow  (but just with the stats provided) your issue is mainly that you do not have your clubs mapped properly or can't get close to ding enough.  Your GIR / Dist to pin / scrambling are all poor which puts huge pressure on your putting.  No doubt within that big lack of control ( as say just going by the stats on offer) you are too often way out of place, and on champ especially that can really penalise as one must accept.    

    MukilteoMike1:
    but they're a better beginning point for downhill putts than the oft-quoted feet minus drop estimation. 

    Fine if it works for you, but you say it does not anyway.  Moreover, some better players will disagree anyway so not better for them anyway as start point either as they keep telling you.....Bar none in this thread is any one saying this = exactly what to do every hole - Is that so hard to grasp???

    Some days I see the line better than others, but distance is usually not an issue.  I have more RRs than you and so more experience, but you just want a quick fix and you are too pig headed to accept it don't exist, and just go learn the game as advised.  It's not Candy Crush so you can't get there as quick.

    Learning does not mean here Mikey hit this exactly this hard at always 3 boxes over and watch it go in and get a guaranteed birdie clap, no matter how crap the approach was........Which bit of that is hard to get???

     

  • fatdan
    3,379 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 11:16 AM

    This is what you don't get Mike...

    25ft up 12 is easy, the formulas work, on a couple of courses like Merion you better at least get to the hole though...

    25ft down 12 isn't....the break is doubled so 25ft isn't 25ft...if the downhill is that severe your approach stopped on a flat spot of some sort or it would have rolled back down which becomes a huge factor, where does the downhill start, how hard do I have to hit it to get off of the plateau I landed on...

    no break and already on the gradual downslope you just get it rolling and pray...

    barely on a flat spot, double the break and hit it 2-3-4-5ft power, depends on the lay of the slope...

    if the severity of the downhill starts 10, 12, 14, 18ft away, how hard do you hit it to barely be rolling when it starts, how hard do I hit it to get off the flat and not leave another severe downhill putt 6? 8? 9? 10?.....is the break so severe I have to go sideways and hit it harder which always leaves a difficult putt for par and brings bogey into play unless of course you make it...

    NO formulas, feel/experience...the formulas tell me to hit some 8ft downhill putts that are straight in or barely moving at 3 power, I take the break out and hit 6, 6 1/2, same thing!

    that's why everyone says "hit below the hole"....you have to be good enough to do that! There are pins that missing it correctly is good...birdie in play, bogey out of play...

    At Merion for example, I would rather have a severe uphill 20ft putt for birdie than a 5-8ft sidehill lie with a severe downslope and break then a 20ft uphill for par anytime! Kiwiah has holes that are best to missed in certain areas so you don't get a funky camera angle...

    Merion #15 front left pin for example, I aim for the flag but make sure I'm not past it...if it sticks close fine, birdie, if it rolls off the hill fine, chip up which might go, and take the par...what I don't want is a 8-12ft putt I have to hit at 2-3 and still have a chance to roll off the green leaving a chip for par..

    You very well may be one of those players, but you don't provide any useful info.  (F

    I play as good or better than 99.9% of the people on this site...yet I score as good as 50% of them...I hit 1 approach per 9, not tooooo bad but leaves a tough putt I make sometimes, my real problem is very easy 3-8 ft putts with little or no break that I push or pull off the hole because I'm stupid, it is ingrained in my mind that I'm going to do it a few times per 9 after playing the hole very well, I turn 25-27's into 29-31's everyday like it is a rule, yet only missing the putts by an inch here and there total, or lip out!  That's why I'm not playing much for awhile, when I start playing again if I don't improve I have most likely peaked, I'll quit playing regularly and take on something else...

  • MainzMan
    9,585 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 11:17 AM

    KenZarley:

    The formula here is for Very Fast Greens

    30 feet uphill 6 inches (same slope of green as previous example ) 

    HIT = 30 * ( 9.3966 * 0.01667 + 0.8450 ) + 1.0 = 31.05 feet

    50 feet uphill 21 inches ( x = 21/(12*50) = 0.035 so

    HIT = 50 * ( 9.3966 * 0.035 + 0.8450 ) + 1.0 = 59.69 ft

    Do your uphill putts tend to stop short?

    No way are either of these within 2 feet.

  • KenZarley
    14 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 11:56 AM

    Some days it does seem like a leave some of my 15 - 25 foot putts short but other days not so much. 

    For me the object isn't so much to sink a 50 foot putt, or even a thirty footer.  Its to get it close enough for a tap in or save par.  On some courses I find that WGT does slow them down, a little as compared to other courses.  Especially at TSG.  A few months ago they did an update that seemed to standardize the speeds a bit.  Now there is less variability than there was say 3 months ago.  And now they have two different TSGs.

     It seems to me by looking at this thread - there are quite a few different ways to get the job done.  I have tremendous respect for those players that putt by feel, I just can't get my head around how that works.  

    If you try it and you like it  great. I am just saying this is ONE person's method. And if you are having difficulty with distance and consistency this might be a method to try.  Its right there, for VFG.  

    Most of you replying to this thread are phenomenal putters, and obviously tremendous ball strikers, to leave yourself so many short putts for birdie.  This method is clearly not meant for you.  This is for the beginner who is looking to try something different. And this IS different.

    KZ

  • JFidanza
    1,676 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 1:06 PM

    MukilteoMike1:

    Here's a reproduction of a special bonus hidden in a section that most can't see...Incredibly Helpful Hints From Responders In This Thread

    1--  steep hills?  

    2--  sand saves. 

    3-- maximum yardage on approaches into the wind? 

    4--Those big breaker putts under 10 feet  .

    I'm still learning about WGT so I look at what the pros are saying when I search the forums.

    My advice is lacking but I have many of the plights that you have mentioned and these are some of the posts that talk about those issues.

    1) Downhill putts are just weird, IMO, the aim is very important I've found. (a better approach to avoid downhill putts is a very important goal and for good reason)

    The inertia will change calculations. Davester gave basic advice to 'remove a foot off the final solution for every 5 inches of elevation down' but this is not fool proof. A lot of factors of physics come into play between different green speeds and how they work against a moving ball. See more advice on downhill putts at that post.

    2) Players say a ball with a lower trajectory will be slowed less by a head wind. Advice varies from using the proper amount of top spin or trying a punch shot instead of a full shot. See comments on the punch into the wind. (Sometimes a full shot w/ a little TS will be better than the punch I have found, it depends on how hard the wind is blowing, club, etc.)

    3) Sand save techniques can vary with % of lie and elevation, green slope etc. but advice can address the spin dot, and the % of added power needed to reach the hole. See just one of the posts about sand saves.

    4) Shorter putts on a heavy slope can be calculated if you have experience, sure - you set your aim & power to what worked in the past. But I don't have years of experience so I try the 'off ding' putting method. Read more about miss ding VS ding putting on a big slope.

    I don't have all the answers, but I have a lot of questions. And there is no better teacher than experience.

  • pdb1
    24,278 Posts
    Tue, Jul 22 2014 2:07 PM

    Unfortunately . Basically what I get from these posts is that with the exception of an elite few (you guys and a few more) . Most of us probably will never be able to play merion and the like Esecially the greens on any sort of consistant basis . I am starting to come out of denial and face it . It is still a lot of fun . These threads and 4 dozen tutorial videos have been interesting .

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