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Putting Math (not for the faint of heart)

Wed, Aug 27 2014 2:47 AM (74 replies)
  • fatdan
    3,379 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 1:57 AM

    My bad...

    x .7 tournament .75 slow tournament .8 very fast

    if remember right I used .72____.77___.83 with little less break...

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 2:06 AM

    KenZarley:
    Have you ever thought that there should be a mathematical relationship between hitting a putt and how far it should roll?  Well, There is, even in WGT.

    Mate all looks very clever, but then so do many things that I do not understand.  

    No disrespect here right as appreciate the effort, assume you are correct and appreciate all stats are from day 1.  Your score history also says you are learning the game well enough.

    However you will understand that 31% 1 putt is dreadful as a headline, and that alone tells me to proceed cautiously that's all....

     

    MukilteoMike1:
    I'm interested because, despite what others say, the distance plus/minus inches in elevation equation simply isn't accurate enough on any putt with much elevation change.  I'm doing everything by feel (guess) right now.

    Works fine with some common sense applied??.  How far away are you ending up away??  over what elevations???

    What Dan said is probably fine too.  I happen to start with following:

    V Fast 85% over 10' and 1:1 under;

    L Tourney 75%

    and Champ 70%.  

    Then it's simply +/- elevation with a modicum of common sense to speed (inertia and ongoing roll ability per given speed rating), general topography etc.  E.g. 9 foot dead straight, up 2 inches on V Fast hit it a solid  12 and it will be OK.  As someone said green speeds are played with though, so you need to be prepared to adjust per round sometimes.  

    Obviously more common sense also includes remembering the interaction of putter precision rating, balance rating / how deep meter set (you have V good balance though), green breaking (s), high wind and overall distance.  

    I may not be in the hole as often as I would really like, but I often am tap in close even from 40+ feet on any speed, any green any course not just beth F9 v fast no wind..  

    Check some posted vids from superb players like NOTONTHIS on the way they putt as well. 

    KenZarley:
    I can complete the calculations in about 30 seconds.

    Mine take around 3 seconds even in my head.  

    If your one's are working great and are now improving your 1 putt stat great, but personally I do think it's too easy to over think this game sometimes.

    Now some one was going to show me how to use my new abacus I believe:)

     

  • MukilteoMike1
    44 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 4:29 AM

    I love how people say, "this calculation works fine," and then go on to say "plus any modifications I make based on the actual putt."  That is exactly the point.  Ken is saying his formula takes away the on-the-fly manipulations, but I can't get his to make any sense at all.

    Here's an example of when the standard feet - inches plus 2 doesn't work...

    If you have a downhill put of 30 feet which goes down 20 inches, you'll blow by the hole significantly if you hit it 12 times whichever factor based on green speed you use, especially if you're on championship greens. 

    As a side note, my green speed factors are 73% for championship, 77% for tourney 12, and 82% for tourney 11.  I'm not convinced those are the right numbers, but that's what I'm going with at the moment.

     

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 5:01 AM

    MukilteoMike1:
    I love how people say, "this calculation works fine," and then go on to say "plus any modifications I make based on the actual putt." 

    It's just basic common sense, nothing magical.

     

    MukilteoMike1:
    If you have a downhill put of 30 feet which goes down 20 inches, you'll blow by the hole significantly if you hit it 12 times whichever factor based on green speed you use, especially if you're on championship greens. 

    30 x 70% = 21 then deduct 20  = 1 :)...Was that really a real world example??

    None of it is hard.  If the OPs calcs do infact cater for all distances (I never got that from it but my math don't easily follow it), and it works fine then great.  I questioned it mainly because 31% 1 putt is dreadful, but maybe he has turned some corner.  The simple version takes 1/10th the time all up, and I am close as most.

    How far past are you going in the real world usually.  I think that example you gave most people would just put that down a bad approach, not that I can think of one that extreme anyway.  Also putts are not always linear with elevation anyway.  Real world might be down 3 for 5 feet then drop off down 10 for say 15 feet.  Champ is designed to test good players who appreciate being that out of position is real medicine time too.

    No top player but my 57% 1 putt stat comes from all the different courses / conditions playing single play often too, not often WD from CC stuff often also in testing conditions, and using the basic calc.

    IRL science tries to quantify "feel" but never gets there properly.  People make way too much of all this.  Even here a half decent distance to pin / understanding of where to be on the green with your approach, and it's hard to be far away with basic dist calc then +/- elevation, and some common sense.

    BTW as you gave your speeds and were not sure about them I am not adjusting mine put it that way. Remember though that WGT will sometimes adjust green speed anyway, and champ once course v another etc....  Play a RG hit the first firm and try to read as best you can as that's all you get to adjust or lose bad.

  • MainzMan
    9,586 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 5:50 AM

    KenZarley:

    E = elevation change (+) for uphill (-) for downhill in INCHES

    D = Actual Distance to hole in FEET.

    THE UPHILL PUTT= {[(+ E ) /(12* D )]  * M(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) + B(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) } x D + 1.0 Ft 

    THE DOWNHILL PUTT = {[(- E )/ (12* D )] * M(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) + B(CSG, or TSG, or VFG) } x D 

    HIT = Dist. to Pin in feet *(9.3966 * (elevation change in inches/Distance to pin in feet *12) + 0.845) + 1.0 Ft.

    Quite a piece of work, not for me but I respect the effort you've clearly put(t) in.

    My problem with complex calculations, apart from the 30 seconds required just to get the speed, break hasn't yet been considered I assume, is that WGT doesn't operate quite as precisely as that.  Greens do vary from hole to hole, even within the same round.  That's why I think feel and experience will be more successful than maths.

    Anyone can putt however they want of course, I've nothing against someone calculating a putt to the nth degree if they wish to, it just doesn't seem very golf like to me.  

    I'm more of an Mmmm, that looks about right player.

  • fmagnets
    3,638 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 6:06 AM

    A challenge for the OP: the next time you are on the front of the par 5 12th at Oakmont, putting to the back right pin, or the front of the par 4 17th putting to the back pin, let us know how your formula gets on.

    The simpler formula I use works well for the most part and is similar to the others mentioned here, but is miles out on these two putts in particular (and the ones in the putting challenge CTTH). My feeling is that the putt on the 12th is travelling on such a huge arc that you need to estimate the distance the putt will travel rather than the distance to the pin, which is probably about 10ft extra. And there is something about those big, long uphill putts that needs 5ft knocking off the usual simple formula. If this new formula takes account of these things without any tweaking needed, then bravo!

  • MukilteoMike1
    44 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 6:36 AM

    Jimbo, you're being a bit silly. There shouldn't be any need to have "feel" because the game obviously plays with WGT's secret formula.  The idea of this thread is to discover that formula, at least that's the way I understand the original post. 

    And do you realize all you're doing is spouting out rhetoric instead of definitively answering a question or offering a solution? How about adding to a conversation instead of running circles around the subject?

    Lastly, there's a lot more to making a putt than simply figuring out how far you have to hit it.  It's ridiculous to be critical of a formula because someone doesn't make enough putts.   

  • PaulTon
    10,731 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 6:49 AM

    KenZarley:
    Have you ever thought that there should be a mathematical relationship between hitting a putt and how far it should roll?  Well, There is, even in WGT

  • Jimbog1964
    8,378 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 7:36 AM

    MukilteoMike1:
    And do you realize all you're doing is spouting out rhetoric instead of definitively answering a question or offering a solution? How about adding to a conversation instead of running circles around the subject?

    The only one now running circles is you, and ever decreasing ones.  I am fine with my distance control using a simple calc and common sense.  I answered directly how I do it - re read as struggling to see where that was difficult to grasp.

    MukilteoMike1:
    Jimbo, you're being a bit silly. There shouldn't be any need to have "feel" because the game obviously plays with WGT's secret formula.

    One look at the better putters stats in this thread versus the others and the methods used... hmm ....You may wish to reconsider before being so resolute??.

    MukilteoMike1:
    Lastly, there's a lot more to making a putt than simply figuring out how far you have to hit it.

    Exactly at last we agree on something,and per my explanations all along anyway.

    MukilteoMike1:
    It's ridiculous to be critical of a formula because someone doesn't make enough putts.   

    When it's a new one, to me, and the putting record is 31% I just said I was cautious about it. I never dismiss anything, and thank him for the effort. 

     

     

     

  • alcaucin
    9,041 Posts
    Mon, Jul 21 2014 7:43 AM

    MukilteoMike1:
    Lastly, there's a lot more to making a putt than simply figuring out how far you have to hit it.  It's ridiculous to be critical of a formula because someone doesn't make enough putts.   

    And hopefully, finally...

    Jim just pointing out that with a 31% ave, the OP, best not to start telling others how good your system is ?

    ( think he also said Aves are not the be all and end all, if used starter stuff to begin ? )

    Chill and listen to better plyrs ?

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