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Recent WGTAdmin Post in case no one has seen

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 12:14 AM

  Addendum: The comments in this thread by WGTadmin2 are the first time that I've ever seen WGT staff claim that they realized the extremely unfair advantage that sandbaggers currently have, so it's possible that there is an end in sight to this problem, but we'll have to see what changes they make before we can judge their response.

  If they get it right, bitching from legends will drop probably around 50%.  There is still the possibility that a legend could gain an advantage from sandbagging as a master, (which even a new anti-sandbagging average algorithm might not fix,) but that would be a lot more tolerable than the current situation and could be easily fixed with a legend-only driver.

• VilaRestal 95 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 1:13 AM

  Aww bless Charlemagne.

  The problems of the amateurs not being able to get equipment to compete is as nothing compared to the terrible misery of legends... errr... not being able to get equipment to compete. Boo-hoo for you and only you.

  Imagine what it would be like, whilst still learning the game, getting promoted up the tiers, not just one tee back but two (plus stronger winds and faster greens), and not being able to get any equipment except those with the highest meter speeds and lowest forgiveness.

  A master starting up a new account in order to sandbag is, incidentally, going to be in for an unpleasent surprise when he/she realises how long it's going to take to be able to get decent equipment.

  I remember you saying you were going to retire your account and start up a new one. Please do and discover how much worse it is for people starting out. Almost the entire shop is locked except the most difficult to use clubs.

  I'm sorry but your obsession (legends and masters earning credits on this site and sandbagging) is of no interest to the vast majority of players here. By far the biggest problem is that faced by newcomers who are restricted to buying the most difficult to use equipment. It is seriously affecting the enjoyment of thousands of members.

  I can acknowledge the new legend tier have been treated unfairly without diminishing the fact that the biggest problem is the unfairness to new players (to any players who didn't buy equipment before the change). Why did you have to claim that only your problems are important? Suddenly I find myself hoping that they don't get resolved.

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 1:49 AM

  VilaRestal:

  Aww bless Charlemagne.

  The problems of the amateurs not being able to get equipment to compete is as nothing compared to the terrible misery of legends... errr... not being able to get equipment to compete. Boo-hoo for you and only you.

  If anyone on here knows the "woes" of amateurs, it's me, seeing as how I've recently played 30-35 rounds from the amateur tees with starter equipment, and I can tell you right now that I could score a lot better as an amateur than I can as a legend.

  VilaRestal:

  Imagine what it would be like, whilst still learning the game, getting promoted up the tiers, not just one tee back but two (plus stronger winds and faster greens), and not being able to get any equipment except those with the highest meter speeds and lowest forgiveness.

  As I already pointed out, the level 33 Burner Plus Iron Set is comparable with the level 58 V2 set.  Both have 4 forgiveness.

  VilaRestal:

  A master starting up a new account in order to sandbag is, incidentally, going to be in for an unpleasent surprise when he/she realises how long it's going to take to be able to get decent equipment.

  Doesn't matter, seeing as how you can score better from the amateur tees with starter equipment than you can as a legend from the championship tees with master equipment.

  VilaRestal:

  I remember you saying you were going to retire your account and start up a new one. Please do and discover how much worse it is for people starting out. Almost the entire shop is locked except the most difficult to use clubs.

  I did, and it was a bit of a joke.  Levels 1-15 are attained with one, single round per level, and 15-20 are attained with about two rounds each.

  VilaRestal:

  I'm sorry but your obsession (legends and masters earning credits on this site and sandbagging) is of no interest to the vast majority of players here. By far the biggest problem is that faced by newcomers who are restricted to buying the most difficult to use equipment. It is seriously affecting the enjoyment of thousands of members.

  Once again, you can get clubs with four forgiveness at level 33.  (You can actually get a toned-down set of the V2s, which have four forgiveness, at level 29, but I'd recommend holding out for the superior Burner Plus set.)  If you want some decent clubs even earlier than that, there's also the level 13 Burner Plus iron set, which has three forgiveness, two spin, and two precision.

  Now, I see some of you guys complaining about needing level 58 or 65, or whatever to buy some of the better clubs, but guess what?  All the legends are going to be in the same boat as soon as the legend equipment hits the pro shop.  We are going to have to level-up as well, and I can assure you that 1-30 or 20-30 is a joke compared to 40-50, 50-60, etc.  Our "head start" on levels is quite insignificant relative to the amount of experience points needed to attain the higher levels.

  VilaRestal:

  I can acknowledge the new legend tier have been treated unfairly without diminishing the fact that the biggest problem is the unfairness to new players (to any players who didn't buy equipment before the change). Why did you have to claim that only your problems are important? Suddenly I find myself hoping that they don't get resolved.

  The fact of the matter is that while there may exist some difficulties for non-sandbagging pros and amateurs, they are either the exact same difficulties that legends are already facing (or will be facing legends shortly when new equipment comes out ["I need level 70!?  OMG!"] ) or insignificant/nonexistent compared to the problems facing legends (e.g. being beaten by people with starter equipment despite being a very good player, etc.) 

  For sandbagging pros and amateurs, the changes have, so far (again, we'll have to see what WGT does to end sandbagging,) have made them about as happy as a kid in a candy store.  If sandbagging is completely demolished by WGT, legends might actually take into consideration what it's like for players that are not as good as themselves, but until sandbagging is gone, no legend in their right mind would advocate the idea that pros and amateurs should be given better equipment, earlier.  A sandbagger can already destroy us, so why would we want to make being a pro/amateur even easier than it already is if that's the case?

• PRIESTESS 10,704 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 2:36 AM

  36 of the top 40 monthly credit earners are Legends, Perhaps wgt just needed a Tier in between Tour master and legend.For those legends that are outside the top 100 players.Im getting used to it now and ready go winning scores are much more realistic,34 won ready go Kiawa front nine the other day, and i won BP with a 67 which at the time i thought wouldn't make top 5.Changes are tough but it makes everything more realistic in my opinion,Before the changes we could play KIawa back nine blindfolded is that what you  want to do for the next 2 years play courses blind folded,A new driver with another 20 yards and 1 extra spin ball is all we need right now,

• Pangaea 242 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 2:53 AM

  CharlemagneRH:

  If anyone on here knows the "woes" of amateurs, it's me, seeing as how I've recently played 30-35 rounds from the amateur tees with starter equipment, and I can tell you right now that I could score a lot better as an amateur than I can as a legend.

  Of course a very good player can score better when hitting from the closest tees. Does that really surprise you?? That's why people move up tiers when they come better - to keep the scores more realistic and give the better players a challenge. A true hack and amateur player doesn't have nearly the same control over the clubs, courses or putting than a great player with poorer clubs, so of course you will score better than further back with better clubs.

  Sure, Legends can say I don't know what I'm talking about. I've only been here a good month and am not a Legend. Fair enough. But I also remember how it was as a Pro, as I was that only days ago. And I can tell you (pl.) that there were many, many Par 4s I had no chance of getting a birdie chance on, needing to drive a ~230 yards wood shot to the green. So the experiences aren't radically different in this department.

  I do agree it would probably make sense to come out with a 285-290 yards driver to make sure legends can hit the fairway on all holes even with wind in the face. But it's a delicate matter. Legends are already shooting low-60 rounds with some sub-60s thrown in, and it's only been a week since the black tees were introduced. If they come out with a 300+ yards driver we'd be back to the absurd mid-50 scores. That simply isn't realistic, and I applaud WGT for trying to fix it.

  Also keep in mind, all the people who howl for a new driver, that if one is introduced (and I think it will be), it will be available for all players, not legends only - given they have a high enough level to purchase it. So we'd basically be back to the same situation that a sandbagging Tour Master can have better equipment than legends. Even a Hack if he goes to extreme length to play badly, or simply play a lot of rounds and shoot like a blind man.

  The bigger and core issue here is to address sandbagging and tiering, to ensure players have their true tier. There are probably other factors than average score that goes into moving people up tiers. If a player shoots a lot of low 60 rounds he should be moved up, even with all the sandbagging in the world. Perhaps there could even be put a smart system into place to players can't just 5-putt some holes and never move up tiers. Wink-wink...

  I feel a little sorry for WGT to be perfectly honest. Here they make a big change to the site, and at least partially addresses MP quitting and sandbagging, making the game more challenging and realistic (scores) for the best players, and giving everybody something to shoot for - and they get nothing but abuse. Even here when they try to be vocal they get mostly abuse and ha-has back.

  A typical comment is that the top tier players will leave and this will hurt financially. Maybe it will. I'm far from sure though. To me it looks like those kind of players at least break even in RGs. In fact, I suspect one big chip on the shoulder right now is that RGs may not be fully self-funded because it's not quite as easy to take money off Amateurs, Pros and Masters as it was under the old system. As somebody else said, now the shoe is on the other foot. Doesn't feel so good, does it?

  But I digress. I don't think the great players put a lot of money into the site any more, cause they get all the credits they need (and then some) by winning RGs. Even now after the change. I suspect the biggest sums come from the lower and middle tier players, like myself for example. After all, there are fairly few Legend players, and a great many Hack to Master players. We will probably never know the true answer here, but it would be interesting to see how WGT makes their money.

  It is of course entirely possible I would have the same view if I ever made Legend, but even so I do think many Legends are missing the bigger picture. WGT want to create a realistic golf game. Every tournament winner scoring 55-60 is not realistic. So they had to do something. In addition, though I have the best clubs available now, I love that there is some point to playing besides trying to improve the average and hunt for the odd Top 70 finish so I can get a couple of credits. The Level system has provided a further incentive for playing.I've played more since the change than before it, and this is partly down to wanting to increase my levels.

  Sorry for a long post.

• tiffer67 1,764 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 3:12 AM

  PRIESTESS:

  A new driver with another 20 yards and 1 extra spin ball is all we need right now,

  I tend to agree with that, even though I don't agree with the principle of punishing those who have excelled in the first place. However were that to happen it means that Legends are going to have to spend more money than anyone else in order to play the game competitively, particularly in relation to balls. It all seems a rather bizarre way to treat some of your best customers.

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 3:27 AM

  PRIESTESS:

  36 of the top 40 monthly credit earners are Legends.

  Do you know any pro or amateur sandbaggers that play at least six RG's a day?

  Just because there's no sandbagger that plays as much as iconian, yoban, etc. does not mean that it would be difficult to win every single RG as a sandbagging pro or amateur.

  The problem is massive, but luckily for WGT, nobody has had the brains to exploit it as of yet.  If you don't think you could destroy the legends in RG's as a sandbagger, toss on your starter clubs, except keep your good balls and wedges.  All of that stuff is available at level 20, and even some decent irons too, but we'll even keep you on the starter irons.  Do a practice round from the amateur ("easy") tees, and see how that score compares to your regular score.

• PRIESTESS 10,704 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 3:32 AM

  Do you know any pro or amateur sandbaggers that play at least six RG's a day?

  If they were sandbagging Charlie then yes they would ,

• CharlemagneRH 1,054 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 3:37 AM

  Pangaea:

  I feel a little sorry for WGT to be perfectly honest. Here they make a big change to the site, and at least partially addresses MP quitting and sandbagging, making the game more challenging and realistic (scores) for the best players, and giving everybody something to shoot for - and they get nothing but abuse. Even here when they try to be vocal they get mostly abuse and ha-has back.

  I didn't read all of your post (I might later), but all WGT had to do is say "We realize that allowing pros, amateurs, and even masters to now tee off from easier tees, coupled with the fact that they can now get access to equipment that they would have normally not been allowed to get, poses a huge problem in the sense that it makes sandbagging extremely powerful.  Due to this, we are going to be making significant changes to our 'average' algorithm so that this may not be exploited."

  But they didn't do it even though this problem was brought to their attention at least a month ago.  Why not?  Who knows.  But, for at least half of the bitching, it's their fault that it took place.  All they had to do is say that they were going to address sandbagging and add in a new (hopefully legend-only) driver or two, but they made everyone think that nothing was going to be done about the problems, so of course, everyone bitched about it, as they should've.

  In the end, did they do the right thing?  Yes.  But it was their fault that they got bitched at for at least some of this stuff, so don't feel too sorry for them.

• BolloxInBruges 1,389 Posts

  Fri, Sep 10 2010 3:43 AM

  I personally think 20 yards is way too much to ask for.  This is as far back as the tees are gonna get, and lets not forget WGT is trying to make $$ here.  If they give us a 300 yard driver right now, what is the next driver, 305-310 so we are shooting cartoon scores again in 6 months?  If they gradually give us slightly better drivers every 3-6 months or whatever they get all of us to upgrade many more times.

  edit - and even if they do have a new driver soon, who will be able to use it before 2011 besides icon and yoban anyway under the level system.