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Wed, Jan 26 2011 9:57 AM (61 replies)
  • andyson
    6,415 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 8:48 AM

    Well said kam4122!

  • pricehcs
    288 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 10:13 AM

    Congrats on the 27 Tess!  Great round!  I see you've  been on fire lately.

    Once upon a time I pitched what I thought was my best analogy to describe the standard deviations on shots hit to the great and powerful Nivloz :-).  Of course WGT can't confirm or deny this, so take my 2 cents with a grain of salt...

    Think of hitting your shot akin to throwing a dart at a pre-punched board (the darts without the sharp tips).  Now, think of every hole in the dartboard having a number assigned to it.  This is how the WGT golf shot works.  When you hit your shot and ding the meter, a circle is created.  From there, a random number generator chooses one of the numbers that determines where your ball will fly to.  Your choice of spin has an impact on the trajectory, higher or lower.  Once that flight is determined, wind impacts it and then of course where it lands impacts it next (green /  fairway / rough / upslope / downslope / etc).  You ball comes to rest at it's final place once all of these external influences (after the ding) do their thing.

    The mystery remains, how big is this circle?  No idea, but as was pointed out earlier by the great and power Bolloz :-), we don't have 5 out of 5 precision clubs.  So, it's safe to venture that the circle is a decent size.  And it's safe to assume that the less precision dots you have on your club specs, the bigger your circle is.  Those that have dinged shots to see them veer off left or right are smiling and nodding right now (well, maybe not smiling).

    So, what happens when you miss the ding?  Does the circle get bigger?  I say no.  Instead, the circle moves, either left or right depending on which side you missed the meter on, as well as towards you, as we lose some distance as a result of the missed ding.  Now, we have all had missed dings that work out pretty well for us, so again, it suggests that this circle is a decent size.

    So, long story short (too late), I agree with my esteemed colleagues that the mysterious VEM may or may not exist, but it is something we cry foul over far more often than we probably should - and yes, I've been known to be towards the front of that line.  :-)

  • CharlemagneRH
    1,054 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 10:14 AM

    PRIESTESS:

    Can be bothered,:) My latest reply is the biggest Vem you will ever see,Wind is 2mph YES 2,lol,,at 5 o'clock,I aimed straight hit 215 half bs  and dinged it,, the ball went 20 yards LEFT and 235,Par 3  14th Kiawa,,Like i said a while ago,, BEWARE the 2 and 3 mph wind at Kiawa,,You have to see it,And remember this was aimed st and dinged,

    It's a deviation easily noticed when the ball is fresh off the clubface, not anything to do with wind.

    The replay shows a Rapture V2 3W, so you're not exactly swinging a highly precise club.  Was the deviation severe?  Yes.  Was it probably really annoying?  Sure.  Is it a complete surprise that a V2 didn't go where it was supposed to?  Not especially.

    Though it happened only once, and I did miss the ding by one pixel, I had my G10 3W miss ~35 yards left before (not including the roll, of course.)

    It's annoying, and I'm not a fan of increasing deviations because of crap like this.  It's pretty frustrating to miss by 20-40 yards with a perfect or nearly perfect shot.

  • lvietri
    3,326 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 11:31 AM

    Wow Monty .. you type pretty good with one hand ... 

  • kam4122
    1,695 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 11:36 AM

    Ahem... One hand, a thumb and a little finger :-)

  • oneputtdavid
    1,337 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 11:54 AM

    pricehcs:
    I agree with my esteemed colleagues that the mysterious VEM may or may not exist,

    FOUL,.... major penalty assessed for instigating.

    after reading your analogy of the "circle" in relation to deviations or VEM, (well written and makes perfect sense, if I may add) Then to cop out w/may or may not exist is unacceptable......LOL

    No expert here on, how/when/why/where the Virtual Equipment Model works within this game, but the fact is, it does exist. To what degree it effects a shot, round, or player's ability doesn't matter. The sole purpose is to keep players from hitting perfect shot's 100% each time. Will 9X-XX% result in good to very good results? "most" of the time, but its not "perfect"......IMHO

    After a little research on Who the programmer is, and the fact that a patent was applied for on the "mysterious" VEM, I need not come to any other conclusion for my assessment.

    Like the old saying goes, "if it waddles, quacks and looks like a duck...ITS A DUCK" 

    ps..Bollie, Lee, the same penalty is assessed for flip flopping.  LOL

     

     

     

     

  • BolloxInBruges
    1,389 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 12:04 PM

    oneputtdavid:

    ps..Bollie, Lee, the same penalty is assessed for flip flopping.  LOL

     

     

    Not sure where I flip flopped, deviations are NOT the same thing as VEM, I stated this multiple times in this thread.

    You should realize in your first round on WGT that deviations are present, they affect 100% of players on here, as they are supposed to.  You want clubs that deviate less, spend $$, but there is not yet a club immune to deviation in the pro shop.

    VEM is something far more complex that allegedly singles you out individually for increase deviation.  So far from my experience I have seen nothing to support this.  It is a hell of a lot easier for ppl to blame poor results on something else than it is to blame themselves.

    Does this clear it up or am I still 'flip-flopping'?

  • oneputtdavid
    1,337 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 2:08 PM

    BolloxInBruges:
    Not sure where I flip flopped, deviations are NOT the same thing as VEM, I stated this multiple times in this thread

    Just trying to get a "read/tell" from you on the VEM debacle..;))  You are the one that challenged/rebuked me on my knowledge (lack of) on the whole VEM issue in the first place. lol

    deviations=VEM or vise versa...apples and oranges. I am well aware of the difference between a "true" deviation and a mishit.....It's a "cop out" for anyone to blame a missed shot (other then a meter spike from whatever reason) as a result of a deviation through the VEM process. Rather then confronting the fact that maybe lack of experience or inabilities to choose the correct club, bs/fs, distance etc for a particular shot is the culprit.

    Ok back to the subject at hand. Other then Cheng?, designer/programmer of WGT and the VEM program, you probably know more about the idiosyncrasies of this game as anyone.

    So the million credit question? Is the VEM program (whatever the true definition or effects may be) and integral part of this game? 

     ps....penalty rescinded due to baiting...;D 

     

  • Boomerboy44
    1,514 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 2:59 PM

    Whoever built this game did one hell of a job. I love it with all it's problems. If it was easy how many of use would be here more than 2 days? There is something very compelling about having a really good day  ...man I got this figured out. Then the next day you can't hit your a$$ with both hands and your wife is asking you..."what did you say'. I think the game is always getting better and maybe harder...but I'm not leaving... are any of you???

  • Richard4168
    4,309 Posts
    Wed, Jan 12 2011 3:41 PM

    This was MisterWGT's post on the question of VEM.

    --------------------------------------

    Greetings everyone!

    I thought I’d add my two cents to this discussion in the hopes of answering any questions re: this forum’s speculation.

    -          WGT does not have a system where you, as the player, improve your skills via an RPG-system like in other games -- i.e. arm strength, scrambling ability, luck (my personal favorite), etc.   In WGT, the attributes of your player are the same from day 1 on.

    -          How you improve your ability and/or skill in the game is via two methods:

             1)      Like real golf… simply playing, learning & getting more experience
             2)      Earning and/or purchasing better equipment (balls, clubs, etc)

    -          The equipment manufacturers select which clubs to feature in the game and we follow their guidance on their performance characteristics.   For clubs, as an example, the attributes for distance, accuracy, loft, etc. we list in the pro shop via the ratings.  NOTE:  We created the WGT clubs to fill-in a few gaps… especially for the starting player.

    -          Whenever you equip a club, it’s performance/output will NEVER change based on your score, a tournament, who you are playing or, most importantly, your tier.

    -          Clubs are essentially locked and there is nothing automatically changing/modifying their performance during a single game, series of games, the day, etc.

    So put another way…

    -          If you are a HACK tier-player… the performance you will see with a WGT STARTER is the EXACT same performance a MASTER will see.

    -          If you a PRO tier player… you will see the PING G10 Pro+ clubs performance in EXACTLY the same way as a MASTER tier player using the same clubs.

    That’s how we built the system – so everyone is on a fair & level playing field.


    - MisterWGT

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    This is what the great tibbets said in three different posts on the VEM subject. It's interesting to read again.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    You won't get a cut and dry answer to that question, not because they are being intentionally elusive, but due to the proprietary nature of the system WGT uses.  No one at WGT is at liberty to discuss in detail the inner workings of that system.  It's like asking the CEO of any corporation to divulge any inner company workings and/or secrets:  It's just not going to happen, as it potentially compromises the integrity of that corporation and leaves them at risk from outside influences.

    One thing that a few people are missing here is that there are complex algorithms in place that determine the outcome of every shot.  There are many different variables involved in those calculations, and the equipment used is only one of them.  It would not necessarily be mutually exclusive to have elements of the VEM system in place and have MisterWGT's answer be true. There's just more to the bigger picture than can be elaborated on and for now that's going to have to be good enough for all of us.

    -------------------------------------------

    I can understand your frustrations, as I have shared in them from time to time.  "Mucking up" the waters IMO would be to go through a detailed and purely hypothetical scenario of what could possibly be involved in those complex algorithms, something that I think few would have the stomach for and would probably be wasting a bunch of white space here.

    I'm not speaking for WGT, simply pointing out that if the original VEM document is read carefully in conjunction with the answer given by MisterWGT, it becomes clear that 1. He is doing his best to tell us as much as he rightfully can, and 2. The complexities of the game allow for a wide array of variables to be factored into their current system.  How, when, and where those variables are used and/or manipulated is not really for us to know.  Those are trade secrets, and so long as there is no legal impropriety in their use then they have every right to utilize them at their discretion and keep them to themselves.

    Let me put it this way:  If even 2% of that VEM patent were being used currently, and WGT was asked if the VEM system were being used, then how should they answer?  If they say "Yes, part of it is", then you know the next question will be, "Which part?", to which the reply would have to be, "We aren't at liberty to say".  Then we'd just be back at square one, with people saying they are being elusive when in fact they are asking  questions that they don't really have the right to know the answer to.  We may LIKE to have the answer, but we certainly aren't entitled to it, nor would WGT in any way be disingenuous for not providing it.  KFC doesn't doesn't tell anyone their recipe, why should WGT tell anyone theirs?

    Just something to think about anyway.

    ----------------------------------------

    Ok, let's put it another way.

    If, hypothetically, the game does in some ways get harder the better you get at it, then I am playing the hardest conditions of anyone on here.  It hasn't stopped me from excelling at the game, only from completely dominating at it.  So, I'm not sure why you think you wouldn't be able to excel at the game even if that hypothetical were true.  The way I see it, anyone who isn't me would be playing an easier version of the game.  Consider it some built in handicapping if you will.  Realistically, the algorithm would be based on probabilities of difficulty, not the certainty of such.  Once again, all this is based hypothetically on the idea that there is some sort of VEM modeling at work.

    Yes, the patent is on file and there for public viewing, but we know not what parts of that patent are being/have been implemented.  Those specific details are what comprise the "secret recipe" if you will.  In the corporate world, giving out details like that, even just saying "Yes, there are built in deviations" are a no-no.  There are other games out there who will use every little bit of defined knowledge of this game and try and twist it and market against it.  It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, so keeping the cards close to the chest is the best policy and ultimately necessary.  It  has the unfortunate side effect of keeping us somewhat at arms length...it's the nature of the business.

    ----------------------------------------------

    It's another one of WGT's best kept secrets. I still believe a small proprietary portion of the VEM model exist in the game.   : )

     

     

     

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