# Forums

Help › Forums

#### Another way to Putt

Sun, Dec 10 2023 2:44 AM (100 replies)
•  kavvz 2,195 Posts Mon, Feb 26 2018 5:32 PM

Greetings people trying to get better at putting.   In another thread, Naturali was kind enough to share his putting break formula.  I PM'd him and asked for a few clarifications, and he thought perhaps it should be out there in the forum so more can try it / benefit.  So...here is the formula and the conversation:

((green speed / dot speed in seconds) * (distance in feet - elevation in inches))/1.25

kavvz:

Greetings Naturali,

Was wondering if you'd mind sharing a little bit more information about your break formula?  I play the exact same way as you -- i.e. calculate everything and then make small adjustments based on experience.  Anyway... given this:

<formula was here>

Say the result is 21 from the formula.  How do you aim 21?    Is it based on JC Sneed i.e. where 1st grid is 15, and every other after that is 10?

Great rounds in the VT BTW very nice.  My putter failed me for round 2 -- hence the question!  :)

Much thanks for any help/tips.

Naturali:

The 21 would be inches. None of that JC Snead half grid = 10 or 15 or whatever. That is nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, it's the right idea. And I appreciate the starting point of sending me down that path of calculating. But why have such a convoluted measurement for grids when we already know that the grid is exactly 24" wide. The hole is about 4" wide. We can derive every single inch of the grid from that info alone.

Keep in mind that the formula is based on a pretty much drop dead putt speed. So if you hit it firmer, you'd adjust accordingly.

Also, most putts do not have a "uniform" speed for all the dots. So some mental adjustments will have to be made. Like if the first half has 6 second dots and the last half has 8 second dots. You might input 7. Then line up the putt and see how it looks. You'll start to notice some recurring number patterns and consistent aimpoints emerge.

I've shown this to my country club, but most of them don't have the patience to deal with math or Excel. The few that do use it got really confused at first  by the part of the equation "- elevation in inches". Just remember that you're calculating the break, not the power to strike the putt. So, you are subtracting the elevation. If it is downhill 2". The you would be subtracting -2 in that part of the equation.

This won't drop every putt. But it will get you looking at the correct area to aim, without a doubt. And it's easier to calculate than JC Snead method. There are a couple of other calculations if you get into extreme downhill situations. But 90% of the time, this formula will be sufficient.

Feel free to post this question and my answer in the forums if you want. It might help some of the others and keep me from having to re-type it over and over... LOL

kavvz:

One other question I just thought of was the timing of the dots.  Do you time half a grid double it and input that into the formula, or is the time actually the time of the dots moving just half a grid?

The reason I ask is 11BC2 posted a video about his version of JC Sneed, and his timing method was to time half a grid.

Just wondering what time your formula is looking for?

TIA again.

Naturali:

The formula input is for the dot speed across a full grid.

However, since the dots begin their movement from the center of the grid, I often count it from half a grid and just double it to save time. Usually on really slow dots for long putts.

You might check some of my streams on YouTube to see me switching views back and forth to count the dots.

Like everything to do with putting, it's speed dependent. (It's also sort of camera angle dependent too, if I'm being accurate.) But if you're starting from a concrete calculation, the adjustments become routine. Starting from a "pretty good guess" leaves much more room for error., and you'll never really know how to account for the misses.

I have yet to try this out; but surely will.  Big thanks to Naturali for sharing.

•  Dave33200 2,932 Posts Mon, Feb 26 2018 7:10 PM

I just tried this method and it worked pretty darn good.

Thanks for posting.

Dave.

•  el3n1 4,494 Posts Mon, Feb 26 2018 7:51 PM

Will take another look myself.  I think i tried to use jc grid size to set aimpoint so it obviously wasnt working for me.

•  el3n1 4,494 Posts Tue, Feb 27 2018 4:54 PM

In addition to the above that was already shared, I continued to test and work with Danny's formula...I am still testing it and trying to fine tune it, but since we exchanged some PM's he mentioned I could share it here to save him from typing it again...if it helps further, so be it hopefully it doesn't confuse us more...

Naturali wrote
on 27 Feb 2018 at 3:56 PM

"I did your calculations for the entire length of the putt but since it straightens out the last half this obviously would be the wrong break or aim point...so, I estimated the break was only about 60% of the entire putt.  I then took the original aimpoint and multiplied by 60%"

I do what you just described all the time. Except that I use exact multiples or halves... or halves of halves. Why? Because if it's anything other than a multiple of what you counted for dot speed, then the count must be wrong. At least in my experience. That's part of the recurring number patterns I mentioned above.

"I have also used aim points and relied a bit on some of Tekoma's tips.  I know some people regard Tekoma as a little bizarre, but if you can see a good line one of his methods usually lines up with it.  It gives me more confidence knowing I see something that aligns with something else."

I agree 100%.

"then did the calculations and used Jason's ruler "

I don't think I've seen Jason's ruler. But You don't need one to measure accurate inches of the grid. As a matter of fact, a ruler overlayed on the screen can't give consistent perspective because of camera angles and, more importantly, the hole is not always the same distance from the camera. I just unlock the putting grid and measure every inch of the grid just by know it is 24" wide. Whether it's closer to the bottom of the screen or backed further away from the camera. That said, that dude drains a whole lot of putts. So go with what ya know ;)

"The thing I will have to check is I have noticed that sometimes the break at the beginning of a putt influences a putt more than the break at the very end of a putt."

Yep. My take is that that initial break throws off the initial "angle" a little bit. So now the ball is already turned more down the slope than you originally hoped and it never has a chance. That will be where experience kicks in. Sometimes I'll make an effort to slightly misding into an initial break because of that. More on a downhiller than an uphiller though.

"thought PM would be better since this part of discussion was past...."

No problem. My general forum posts are still moderated, so they show up a day late. The thread reads pretty awkward because of that. I think I have to have 40 or so general forum posts before they show up live. Anyway, feel free to post any of this to the forum. Might help some other folks lurking. And save me from typing it over and over again, LOL. Just kidding, I don't mind at all.

Danny

•  IJACK21 49 Posts Tue, Feb 27 2018 9:41 PM

I find what you guys are talking about very interesting.

However, this is just a game....and I use only 4 rules when putting.

1. correct green speed.  2. The dot system (and how fast the dots are moving).

3. For the correct distance to putt I subtract 7ft from the putting distance.

(for example: A 20ft putt I make it a 19.3ft putt. This gets me near 1 to 2ft of the hole.)

( of course you have to use the correct distance putter.)

4. I subtract 3ft for short down hill putts and 10ft for long down hill putts.

This works for me almost all the time no matter what the greens speeds are.

IJACK21

•  1,866 Posts Wed, Feb 28 2018 6:21 AM

IJACK21:

I find what you guys are talking about very interesting.

However, this is just a game....and I use only 4 rules when putting.

1. correct green speed.  2. The dot system (and how fast the dots are moving).

3. For the correct distance to putt I subtract 7ft from the putting distance.

(for example: A 20ft putt I make it a 19.3ft putt. This gets me near 1 to 2ft of the hole.)

( of course you have to use the correct distance putter.)

4. I subtract 3ft for short down hill putts and 10ft for long down hill putts.

This works for me almost all the time no matter what the greens speeds are.

IJACK21

I guess the above is a good explanation of your putting stats ;-)

•  IJACK21 49 Posts Wed, Feb 28 2018 10:45 PM

Ashamed.  I guess you know it all.....

•  SidersBest 873 Posts Thu, Mar 1 2018 7:21 AM

IJack21

If you like the results you're getting, keep doing what you're doing. Like you said "it's just a game".

Some people want to become "CHAMPIONS" asap, and fine tuning their putting is a necessary evil.

They buy Balls and Wedges, then invest in Putters alll in hopes to get that silly little ball to fall into that extremely small hole, on that green that slopes to the left or right or both. It goes slow uphill and fast downhill. And their thought is: There has got to be a Method to relieve their Madness!

They then get frustrated, and I think I read an individual said he picked his Mouse up from across the room, It may have been his laptop.

But IJack, we can't upset their apple cart by telling them to K.I.S.S. or can we? It an open forum and we are allowed to have an opinion. So keep it in the fairway, and sink every putt you can.

Siders Best

•  Papabukk 708 Posts Tue, Mar 6 2018 1:41 PM

Any way you might simplify that formula for us math challenged folk?

is tat green speed divided by dots times distance minus elevation? Sorry I’m not understanding.

Thanks in advance.

•  kavvz 2,195 Posts Wed, Mar 7 2018 9:27 AM

Papabukk:

Any way you might simplify that formula for us math challenged folk?

is tat green speed divided by dots times distance minus elevation? Sorry I’m not understanding.

Thanks in advance.

((green speed / dot speed in seconds) * (distance in feet - elevation in inches))/1.25

Yes you have it correct, but the bracketing is important.

Say you have:

• green speed 13
• dot speed 7
• distance 23 ft
• elevation 2"

You should get 31.2 inches of break

If you simply did the calculations one after another you'd get 41.1 which wouldn't be correct.

Do it this way

1. First calculate (green speed divided by dot speed) - save that number
2. Then calculate (distance minus elevation) - save that number
3. Then multiply the 2 numbers you get in step 1 and 2
4. Then divide that number you get in 3 by 1.25

Should equal 31.2

HTH,

brad