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TO WEDGE PUTT or NOT TO WEDGE PUTT ?

• Robert1893 7,666 Posts

  Sun, Feb 3 2019 11:40 AM

  andwhy67:

  Some camera angles have been removed there Robert!!  ;-)

  LOL! 

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Sun, Feb 3 2019 1:43 PM

  Robert1893:

  An unfair advantage is when one player can use the tool or has the ability to make a certain type of shot but the other player is prevented from doing so by something external to the player. 

  This has been brought to the attention of WGT I believe... technically mobile to mobile players have the same options for the wedge shot...

  however... mobile players when playing in WGT tournaments against desktop PC players do have an advantage in regards to the wedge on the green.  Yes both have the ability to select a wedge shot on the green --- whereas mobile players have the added advantage of also being able to add SPIN as well as use the wedge on the green.  

  If two players had a very difficult down hill double breaker putt --- the mobile player could easily stick the ball tight with full BS, the desktop player could still use a wedge but it would require a great deal more finesse because desktop players can not add full BS, which limits the wedge capabilities for desktop players, making putting the more reliable shot but still rather testy...

  Now technically, WGT could or can say... the desktop player has the option to play on the mobile platform so it is still available to them... I don't know... 

  It is a difference in shot options not available to both platforms though to my knowledge.

   

• Robert1893 7,666 Posts

  Sun, Feb 3 2019 3:29 PM

  @el3n1

  But now we've constructed a scenario that is so specific that the probability of it coming up in a situation where there is anything important on the line is extremely low.
  
  First, the situation (from a practical perspective) is not going to be a head-to-head situation since one player is a mobile player and the other player is a PC player. 
  
  Second, for it to have an impact that cannot be somehow overcome, it would have to be in a single-play tournament.
  
  Third, both players would have needed to make a bad shot or a bad decision to place themselves in the position you paint.
  
  So, yes, the mobile player would have the advantage. But in playing that tournament, the PC player is not without advantages himself. Or are we just going to neglect the advantages that PC players have? 
  
  In the end, I don't think there's any unfair advantage, regardless of how one constructs various scenarios. 

• borntobesting 9,625 Posts

  Mon, Feb 4 2019 1:46 AM

  dchallenger:

  Robert1893:

  While you appear to have got the answer you're looking for, I just want to note that there is no "unfair advantage."
  
  An unfair advantage is not created simply because a player doesn't know how to use a particular tool or how to execute a specific shot. The player could learn it.
  
  An unfair advantage is when one player can use the tool or has the ability to make a certain type of shot but the other player is prevented from doing so by something external to the player. 

  Bob Loblaw

  In the mobile game there might me a slight advantage. You can still add spin to your shots on the green. I just checked it out. In a Random 3 in the mobile platform i made a 20 foot eagle wedge putt using my 64 degree Cleveland with Full B/S. 

  I sent an email from the mobile app letting them know about the spin on shots on the green. 

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Mon, Feb 4 2019 4:58 PM

  Robert1893:

  But now we've constructed a scenario that is so specific that the probability of it coming up in a situation where there is anything important on the line is extremely low.
  

  not really Robert... I have seen it multiple times myself in some of my own rounds.... if you play any WGT single play tournaments for high credit payouts or even higher credit ready go's in heavy winds... it doesn't take much to end up in a scenario where a wedge on a two tiered green or green with multiple slopes and double breaks can easily allow for a saved shot or a birdie putt where another player would simply be happy to make par...  one shot can be the difference between hundreds or thousands of credits... it is not unrealistic at all and desktop players do not have that option... and both mobile and desktop players play and enter into the same WGT tournaments.

• Robert1893 7,666 Posts

  Mon, Feb 4 2019 5:37 PM

  el3n1:

  not really Robert... I have seen it multiple times myself in some of my own rounds....

  The important question, however, is not if you end up in that position. The important question is whether the PC player ends up in that position. If he or she never does, there's no disadvantage.
  
  By the way, only twice (that I can recall), have I ended up in the position where I thought the wedge was a better option. The first was on St. Andrews, 17th hole. I putted. I actually made the putt. I don't know if it was 1 in a million shot. But there it was.
  
  The second time was Royal St. George's, 4th hole (barely on the green). I used a wedge. I holed the shot.
  
  Based on that small sample size, I've concluded I need to put myself in that position more. :-)
  
  And in my time on here, I've played a lot of heavy wind games, even if I don't play the ready gos.
  
  Should it be addressed? Sure. Is there a real advantage to the mobile player? I remain unconvinced that there is.

• DoctorLarry 4,276 Posts

  Mon, Feb 4 2019 11:09 PM

  Robert1893:

  Is there a real advantage to the mobile player?

  Well, the answer to that specific question is yes.  I don't know whether WGT should remove the BS option from mobile or add it to the PC version if on the green.  I know there are enough times when my ball is heading off the green, I am pulling for it to get on the fringe so I can use a wedge with BS rather than face a difficult putt!!

  Your answer seemed to imply that the PC player would never end up in that position, making the point moot - but that is a false choice.

  Anyway, I doubt anything will change in this respect

• Robert1893 7,666 Posts

  Mon, Feb 4 2019 11:48 PM

  @DoctorLarry
  
  My answer is "yes, the mobile player would have the advantage." I specifically stated that. And I never stated nor implied "that the PC player would never end up in that position."
  
  I stated, "that the probability of it [i.e. the specific scenario] coming up in a situation where there is anything important on the line is extremely low."
  
  I stand by that. There is no "false choice."
  
  Additionally, the advantage the mobile player has is mitigated by advantages the PC player have. Again, as I asked previously, " are we just going to neglect the advantages that PC players have?"
  
  It's not like if WGT removes this advantage of the mobile player that the two platforms are completely identical, providing a completely "equal playing field" with neither platform having an advantage.
  
  My goodness, if it's a high-wind tournament, the conditions each player has aren't even equal. Some players are going to have distinct advantages already while others will be at a disadvantage simply because of their luck in what direction of the wind they get on some holes.
  
  And we're focusing on applying spin to a wedge as providing the mobile player an advantage? Again, to reiterate, the probability of that being the thing determining who wins, given all the other parameters, is extremely low.
  
  Regardless, as I stated, WGT should address the issue. I was clear. Nevertheless, I still don't think that the mobile players have any real, practical advantage. If they did, then PC players would flock to the mobile device to play credit tournaments or ready gos.
  
  By the way, it wasn't that long ago a mobile player went on rant on these forums that he should be able to use apparel in those events because the mobile player is at such a disadvantage in comparison to the the PC player.
  
  But everyone knows, the person who wins always had the unfair advantage. How else could have that player won? There's really no other explanation!

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Tue, Feb 5 2019 7:08 AM

  Robert1893:

  the advantage the mobile player has is mitigated by advantages the PC player have.

  what are those?  I have played on both platforms... to my knowledge the "advantages" desktop players have are geared towards game selection... desktop players can select a greater variety of games, such as AS and match play... but, I do not know of any single advantage tied to one's clubs which are suppose to be equal footing for everyone...

  "the potential" help aids that you see on desktop such as the ruler can also be mimicked on the mobile platform or a similar "measuring device" can be utilized … still those are not CLUB enhancements... they are not giving a decided shot making ability improvement to the player.  

  So, can you please share with me a specific "club enhancement" option I am unaware of desktop players have that mobile players do not?  

  Robert1893:

  if it's a high-wind tournament, the conditions each player has aren't even equal.

   … the only difference between the two is whether a person puts in the work to learn how to manage those heavy winds... there are very good players that play on mobile and manage those heavy winds quite well... I am not certain how they do so ( I have suspicions) ... they could be using aim points, known reference points, experience, or whatever but mobile players are not qualitatively lacking any means to "measure heavy wind offset" some appear to effectively measure that by using the "grids" or flag or other such reference to offset for heavy winds... so they have something available to them to manage those conditions…  I have admitted to simply not putting in the work on heavy winds to manage them better on mobile despite asking and researching it... not many people are willing to share their technique... if they have an edge they seem intent on keeping it... so I keep working with tweaking what comes close enough to at least salvage a reasonable round in heavy winds on mobile.

  Now, that said, I will admit there are times in coin games under heavy wind conditions WGT seems to "turn off" the grid lines in some situations or in tie breaks... whether this is a glitch or something intentional … it does alter one's ability to then assess wind offset... but I do not know or have not seen this happening in a WGT tournament for credits...

  However, a long time ago, I postulated that I suspected it was possible that it was actually desktop players using a mobile emulator to play "mobile" on PC and by doing so those "help aids" that are not seemingly available to the mobile player on a phone or tablet would not have... are now suddenly available... to a certain degree that was confirmed in a video I saw last week.

  Again, Robert, I disagree on this being an exceedingly low probability.  1 shot, 1 can make a huge scoring difference or even help win a tie breaker by saving par or making birdie... 

  Robert1893:

  If they did, then PC players would flock to the mobile device to play credit tournaments or ready gos.

  Not necessarily Robert, but I have read of top players acknowledging and aware of this that it can be easier to switch platforms for one shot then simply switch back... I consulted WGT rep about it as potentially undermining the rules since there is a clear difference between the two platforms with wedges on the green... he suggested or indicated it wasn't a violation of the terms and conditions or at least it wasn't considered a cheat and to do so would be ok, but they would clearly look into it... 

  Robert1893:

  mobile player went on rant on these forums that he should be able to use apparel in those events because the mobile player is at such a disadvantage in comparison to the the PC player.

  I actually feel sponsor apparel is ruining the game, but that is my humble opinion.  But, I use it in coin games when I venture into them, but my club and ball setup is a qualitative different setup so I am able to keep the two separate and not confuse how I play between the two platforms... It is more plausible that by going back and forth mobile players screw with their game, their landing zones, how their clubs play, by switching back and forth...  in essence, they get spoiled wearing their turbo shorts and the superman hat... the better players make the adjustments for how their clubs will play differently and are not nearly as effected by this...  but, they do the work to figure it out....

  Robert1893:

  But everyone knows, the person who wins always had the unfair advantage. How else could have that player won

  Now your just being facetious.  Come on Robert... I get beat most of the time by making mistakes or simply getting outplayed.  Sometimes other factors could be at play... such as mobile players attempting to exploit what could likely be a "hack" due to the reports of ball effects screwing with the game and meter of your opponent... Whether it has been fixed or addressed I don't know... but I still see unsportsmanlike mobile players trying to employ this "hack" to sabotage their opponent... whether it has been corrected, fixed or addressed I don't know... I have grown tired of some of the gimmicks being introduced to mobile side, but I don't hesitate to consider switching over for one shot if it could be crucial to a par save or birdie look knowing it is considered ok to do so...  

• Rick6208 2,144 Posts

  Tue, Feb 5 2019 7:42 AM

  Wow I have read all the replies and some very good points for and against the Wedge Putt , I guess its not a Dead issue ! lol If it is Legal , which it is, than WGT should put it in the tools ! where you choose pitch, chip , putt etc add wedge putt ! that way everyone knows about it and can practice it ! just a thought !

  again thanks to all who have replied !