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TO WEDGE PUTT or NOT TO WEDGE PUTT ?

• DoctorLarry 4,276 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 10:24 AM

  Mythanatos:

  umm. yall are kind of missing something that's glaringly obvious.  I kind of hesitate to point out what yall two who are debating aren't thinking about.

   

  Think about the overall of what you're debating and what the flaw is.

  Well, first off, it must not be obvious, correct?

  The line of debate is fairly restricted, so there is not much to miss here, IMHO.

  I believe the debate was whether a wedge putt was allowable and/or an "unfair advantage".  The clear answer is that it is allowable, legal, and not unfair.

  A secondary point was the fact that mobile players can add BS to wedge putts on the fringe and GREEN, whereas PC players can add BS only to balls on the fringe.  This only provide an advantage if a mobile player and PC player are competing against each other and the situation arises.

  I believe the answers to those points are clear.

  Are you saying there was another debate point not listed above?  

  The only thing obvious to me is to try and avoid getting into the situation where this matters, i.e., don't put the ball on a green where a putt is not better.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 10:36 AM

  I understand Robert, I was just pointing out while you may have said it was an advantage one time, you then stated it wasn't an advantage 3 times... so I went with the "numbers' and 3 outweighed 1... the overall message given was different...

  Robert1893:

  you've written on this topic. If I recall correctly, you've written how it's easier to play heavy winds on the PC than it is the mobile.Sure, those tools are external to the game. But they still only work with the PC platform. Also, if I remember correctly, you've written that it's easier to score better on the PC version. 

  Yep, I recall those posts and I have also stated either within those same posts or others that I simply haven't put the work into mobile because I ended up transitioning to desktop because most of our club was desktop PC based.  Since doing so, PC seems easier for me now, but I hated it at first... my game suffered initially because I was so use to playing mobile at first because it is how I stumbled across WGT to begin with.  Admittedly, the game was still quite new to me in general so those small differences seemed even greater to me then because I was still researching and learning the game.  

  Going between platforms is a little like playing with sponsor apparel and playing without it... You have to make adjustments because there are some differences, but you can still play the game... The two platforms still virtually play the same aside from some small subtle differences.

  I do believe like you point out the greens are a little different.  It is why I always recommend mobile players seek tips from mobile specialist, because they tend to adapt their putting technique or formula's to that platform...  I have specifically used you as an example of someone to consult because you only play mobile..   If you concentrate one platform it is not terribly difficult to learn and adapt.  My frustration tends to be a result of going back and forth to help with the occasional TW, whether I help is another debate. LOL.

  If anything, I believe the mobile platform greens while they seemingly have more "subtle" breaks, they actually seem to putt slower, making them more forgiving… or the run out on T12 and C13 greens is not nearly as severe as what you see on PC.  To me, that makes putting on mobile on faster greens easier.  but it too is dependent on the person.  What surprises me … is how much the really slow greens will break sometimes on mobile.  It is almost like they break as much as a T12 green...

  Since I mostly play coin games on mobile, I haven't take the time to research all the options with reading the greens.  You simply don't have time to study putts in coin games on short timers.  However, I have seen some of the same desktop techniques are suggested and used for mobile play.... the extent of which I can't confirm.

  I also referenced because I suspected it was the case, those "desktop aids" that some people use on PC are also available to mobile players that play on a PC using the mobile android emulator... I just haven't researched or tried to find similar aids for android devices themselves or whether they exist.  But some mobile players do use the OTG connector and use a mouse with their tablet because they find it easier to ding with a  mouse than tapping the screen... in that way the large tablets begin to take on a desktop pc feel.

  That said, I also believe there is a huge qualitative difference between the various mobile platforms … someone using a phone will find the game much more challenging than someone using a large tablet with a 12 or 18inch screen.  Almost like there should be different tiers of mobile based on the device you are using... a tablet player likely has an advantage of a person playing on their phone... hard to say... but I really doubt that would change...

   

• Robert1893 7,664 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 10:50 AM

  @el3n1
  
  Great post. The only thing I would maybe add or tweak is respect to speed of putts on mobile vs PC. 
  
  For flat putts or uphill putts, I think they putt very similarly across platforms. But for downhill putts, I think you're correct. While I don't know if it's so much that mobile plays slower or not, I do think it's a lot easier to judge speed/distance on a downhill putt on the mobile platform than it is on PC.
  
  That's probably why I really don't use the wedge on the green. For me, I don't see a need. There's only a few holes that I really fear the downhill putt. And for those holes, I absolutely make sure I'm below the hole. Plus, I don't play tournaments. So, it doesn't matter to me. 
  
  Nevertheless, overall, I still think putting is easier on PC, once everything is considered. 

• Kenher01 1,151 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 1:07 PM

  Hi,

       As an example In this current Ready Go cycle I believe The 1 K at Chambers Bay with It's high winds & Champ 14 greens could fall Into the category of putt/wedge putt, fair/unfair.

  How often have we got an unwanted straight tailwind on # 12, & remember It's high winds, Say up to that hole both platform players are only doing OK In the round & feel the need to chase that Eagle so they both elect to try & go for It & either overcook It or under-hit It but still get that bad bounce & end up on the back of the green.

  Scenario #1 for the PC player could In theory try to putt It to the ridge & let gravity take over but just leave It short of the ridge & then be possibly looking at a Par/bogie

  Scenario #2 for the PC player would be that again he try's to putt It to the ridge but hits It too firm & he ends up way past the hole & again Is looking at making a long putt for Birdie

  Scenario #3 for PC player Is he wedges It but gets his power slightly wrong & again ends up way past the hole with the roll out

  Granted all 3 different shot types are executable but there's very little margin for error.

  On to the Mobile player, They an go with Scenario's 1 & 2 above but If they are playing the percentages they'd be better going for the FBS Wedge shot from the upper tier of the green.

  Onto hole # 18 & both Platform players get a strong Tailwind & go for It & get a bad bounce & end up right at the back of the green.

  Similar options await them that they had on # 12.

  So In this one RG (1 k) there could be a huge swing just with those 2 holes as to whether someone possible wins/loses, Doubles up or not, Get's their stake back or misses out on getting their stake back by a stroke or more

  Ken

• Robert1893 7,664 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 1:41 PM

  @Ken
  
  But let's say the PC player recognizes it's a high-wind tournament, figures anything can happen, and recognizes the 12th hole isn't really set up for a realistic eagle opportunity. The PC player, understanding the concept of risk/reward, decides that birdie remains a good score and lets others take themselves out of the tournament. He or she decides to play smart (or at least play the percentages).   
  
  Additionally, there's no guarantee they'll both get the same tailwind. Indeed, it's unlikely. If it weren't people wouldn't be complaining about the inequity of the wind in these tournaments. But you knew that.
  
  Again, people can create any scenario they want. From a practical perspective, the number of possible scenarios is only limited by one's imagination. The question is what's the probability that the scenario (exactly as described) would occur?
  
  So, what do you believe the probability of that scenario taking place in a single event? 

• Kenher01 1,151 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 2:08 PM

  Hi Robert,

                   I didn't give one scenario or as you put It "That scenario", I gave multiple options to a given wind (Tailwind) on two holes & what Is the probability of 2 players out of 50 getting a Tailwind on # 12, At a guess maybe 50/50 but that's just a guess, I'll let you work out the probability.

  Point I'm making Is that there Is an advantage to the Mobile player but granted as you suggested the PC player has the possibility to play from the Mobile platform If they have a Mobile device/Emulator

  Ken

• Robert1893 7,664 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 2:24 PM

  @Ken
  
  Yes, you provided multiple scenarios. Since I figure everyone can read them, I didn't feel as if it were necessary to address each one to make my point. 
  
  And the point you're making (i.e. that there is an advantage to the mobile player) has not been disputed by no one in this thread. At least, I can't recall anyone suggesting otherwise.
  
  So, you create scenario and have no feel for how realistic it is. That's the point of disagreement. Does the mobile advantage provide a real, practical advantage that is likely to make a difference, given all of the other factors at play.
  
  I say the probability of that happening is extremely low because there are way too many other variables at play, not the least of which is the direction of the wind, which is not the same for all players in the tournament. 
  
  By the way, I don't recall ever suggesting that "the PC player has the possibility to play from the Mobile platform If they have a Mobile device/Emulator."
  
  I guess I could not be remembering what I posted. But where did I suggest that? 

• Mythanatos 2,203 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 2:25 PM

  Kenher01:

  Hi,

       As an example In this current Ready Go cycle I believe The 1 K at Chambers Bay with It's high winds & Champ 14 greens could fall Into the category of putt/wedge putt, fair/unfair.

  How often have we got an unwanted straight tailwind on # 12, & remember It's high winds, Say up to that hole both platform players are only doing OK In the round & feel the need to chase that Eagle so they both elect to try & go for It & either overcook It or under-hit It but still get that bad bounce & end up on the back of the green.

  Scenario #1 for the PC player could In theory try to putt It to the ridge & let gravity take over but just leave It short of the ridge & then be possibly looking at a Par/bogie

  Scenario #2 for the PC player would be that again he try's to putt It to the ridge but hits It too firm & he ends up way past the hole & again Is looking at making a long putt for Birdie

  Scenario #3 for PC player Is he wedges It but gets his power slightly wrong & again ends up way past the hole with the roll out

  Granted all 3 different shot types are executable but there's very little margin for error.

  On to the Mobile player, They an go with Scenario's 1 & 2 above but If they are playing the percentages they'd be better going for the FBS Wedge shot from the upper tier of the green.

  Onto hole # 18 & both Platform players get a strong Tailwind & go for It & get a bad bounce & end up right at the back of the green.

  Similar options await them that they had on # 12.

  So In this one RG (1 k) there could be a huge swing just with those 2 holes as to whether someone possible wins/loses, Doubles up or not, Get's their stake back or misses out on getting their stake back by a stroke or more

  Ken

  great examples... and you're right. If i was on mobile i'd have zero problem with going for it. because if i'm long in either scenario i know i can wedge it to within 1-2 feet. the ability to fly it and have it stick  is everything about the shot.

• Kenher01 1,151 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 2:40 PM

  Robert1893:

  @Ken
  
  Yes, you provided multiple scenarios. Since I figure everyone can read them, I didn't feel as if it were necessary to address each one to make my point. 
  
  And the point you're making (i.e. that there is an advantage to the mobile player) has not been disputed by no one in this thread. At least, I can't recall anyone suggesting otherwise.
  
  So, you create scenario and have no feel for how realistic it is. That's the point of disagreement. Does the mobile advantage provide a real, practical advantage that is likely to make a difference, given all of the other factors at play.
  
  I say the probability of that happening is extremely low because there are way too many other variables at play, not the least of which is the direction of the wind, which is not the same for all players in the tournament. 
  
  By the way, I don't recall ever suggesting that "the PC player has the possibility to play from the Mobile platform If they have a Mobile device/Emulator."
  
  I guess I could not be remembering what I posted. But where did I suggest that? 

  Quite correct Robert,

                                    I meant to write was Instead of you, Apologies.

  Robert you would be quite surprised If you played In high wind RG's or high wind CC tournaments as to how often a large group of players when they exchange notes afterwards seem to get the unwanted winds, Tailwind on Par 3's, Headwind on Par 5's & so on, It does happen & more often than you would think, While the strength varies & the direction may be anywhere from 11 to 1 0' Clock for tailwinds & 7 to 5 0' clock for headwinds

  In my opinion I disagree that you think the probability of that happening Is extremely low, I propose It's more common than you' would think.

  But I'll agree to disagree, Keep her between the ditches

  Ken

• Robert1893 7,664 Posts

  Wed, Feb 6 2019 3:05 PM

  Kenher01:

  Robert you would be quite surprised If you played In high wind RG's or high wind CC tournaments as to how often a large group of players when they exchange notes afterwards seem to get the unwanted winds, Tailwind on Par 3's, Headwind on Par 5's & so on, It does happen & more often than you would think, While the strength varies & the direction may be anywhere from 11 to 1 0' Clock for tailwinds & 7 to 5 0' clock for headwinds

  No, actually (and with genuine respect), I wouldn't be surprised at all. I don't have to play them to understand how they work. But that's not really where I'm coming from. 
  
  The basis of my intuition is that I have a base understanding of multivariate models and the effects the number of variables have on individual probabilities. Given multiple events and multiple variables, the probability of a single variable (such as the wedge advantage) being the determining factor in the tournament's outcome is very low. 
  
  Could it happen? Absolutely. But the fact that something does happen, doesn't mean that the probability of it happening in a single event is high or even moderate.
  
  For example, a couple of years ago, a baseball player hit a home run that hit the top of a foul pole. I think it was a Florida Marlins player. So, what's the probability that a player would do that at any give time? It's extremely low. The ball hit the actual top of the pole. 
  
  But what's the probability that it would happen at some time, given the number of hits into that area over X number of years? The probability is much, much higher.  
  
  So, here's my point: yes, a person can create a scenario (or multiple scenarios) where it happens (or even has happened). But that does not mean the probability of it happening in each event is moderate or high. And I don't think it is.

  Hit 'em straight and seldom!