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Refund Policy Suggestion

• AtlantaCoaster 645 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:01 AM

  My take on WGT and MY CHOICE to entrust them with my money....

  (I am keeping this brief because VGolf and tibbets specifically have already made the larger points)

  I joined WGT in February 2009.  FREE.

  I played for months.  For FREE.

  I BEGAN TO ENTRUST WGT WITH MY MONEY in about late May or early June when I bought a Driver.  $7.00.  Big deal.  I enjoyed my new Driver.  I had also enjoyed WGT for MONTHS at NO expense.

  Yes, there were technology issues.  It is a BETA and I wholly understood this.  Part of my decision to start entrusting WGT with Money by BECOMING A PAID CUSTOMER was with the knowledge that this was a BETA test AND ALSO that I had some faith in WGT to work out the bugs as time went forward.

  I took much of the period of late June through mid-November OFF from WGT completely.

  I returned to discover - disappointingly - that the same technology issues that existed months before PERSISTED.  I was DISAPPOINTED - BUT I still also had gained ENJOYMENT AND ENTERTAINMENT from participating.

  In November, I bought new clubs.  And some balls.  Total cash outlay from me for 2009 = approx $50.

  For $50 I have had almost a year of entertainment.

  Yes, I have read the disclaimant gobbledy-*** in the "My Account" section about how it is a BETA and there are NO REFUNDS.  I understood this and basically looked at my cash expenditures as a good faith view towards WGT getting it right.

  WGT should "live up to" this part of the bargain (though it is implicit).

  At the point I spent the $$ I never expected (nor will I be requesting) it back.

  Even so, VGolf has a good point that is interesting....and I wish you well on resolving it with WGT.

  To tibbets "driving" question from above and in another thread - the question about "how can WGT charge $$ for a BETA?" - I have one thought to add that may shed some light.

  This is emerging technology.  I think we as users (for the most part) understand this - and as such, we CHOOSE TO begin entrusting WGT with some $$ understanding that it is a bit of a newer-age technology experiment.  BUT oine that we enjoy and entertaiins us.  WGT has really never "forced" anyone to pay for anything.  While I am not intending to  "defend" WGT or their business practices - I am not seeking to indict either.  

  I view this as an experiment that PERMITS us as users to CHOOSE to go along for the ride with or without our finanical investment.

  LOL - so much for keeping it short...

  But that is MY view and philosophy on how I decided and chose to make the transition from Free Member to Paying Customer.  I do not pretend that my view is the "right one" or that anyone should drink my "kool aid" LOL.  I simply wanted to share how I myself came to these decisions.

  $50 for a year of golf - not a bad deal.

  Regards, AtlantaCoaster

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:11 AM

  No problem AC, I understand your point of view.  I've enjoyed the game as well, it's just that it's not customary for a company to charge for beta testing.  Like I stated in the other thread, Beta testing is by definition a period prior to commercial release. Asking for donations is one thing: charging for a majority of products in order to 'test' them makes it commercial. The fact one can play for free is irrelevant, as there can be no testing of the majority of products without some form of payment.  I would expect some form of refund policy in place given the unstable nature of the game, but that is not the case.  Companies do so at their own peril.

  Unfortunately, this thread is headed towards lock and deletion for the same reasons as I stated in my earlier post in this thread.  Discretion, it would seem, is a concept lost on some.

• Doublemochaman 2,009 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:32 AM

  Okay, I'm going to toss my golf ball (GI-D) onto the green (of discussion and commentary).  Like AtlantaCoaster, I played for awhile before plunking down any cash for clubs or balls.  But when I did it was with full awareness of the meter issues... I went into the purchasing mode with eyes wide open.  I knew the shortcomings.

  My theory is that my purchases might be helping to fund WGT to the extent that they can work out the bugs and move the game out of beta.  Let's hope that is true.

• Faterson 2,902 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:35 AM

  AtlantaCoaster:

  Yes, I have read the disclaimant gobbledy-*** in the "My Account" section about how it is a BETA and there are NO REFUNDS.

  This distinguishes you from some of the loudest complainers, doesn't it? By the way, it's in the site's Terms and Conditions (link to them is at the bottom of every WGT.com webpage), not under "My Account". When someone creates a WGT.com user account, they need to tick a box that says, I have read and agree with the site's Terms and Conditions.

  The question is, why is Vgolfmaster so aggressive in asking for refunds, if he, upon joining this site, explicitly agreed that he would not request any refunds? Here is what the Terms and Conditions say, in capital letters, no less:

  WGT.com Terms and Conditions:

  FEES YOU PAY WORLD GOLF TOUR TO ENTER CONTESTS, PURCHASE IN-GAME EQUIPMENT, OR TO OBTAIN ANY OTHER SERVICE OR GOOD, ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART.

  And (among other passages):

  WGT.com Terms and Conditions:

  (3) By starting a beta game, you agree that: (i) playing beta games is at your own risk and that you know that the games may include known or unknown bugs

  I would suggest that, having agreed with all of the above, the proper tone for Vgolfmaster would be a conciliatory one, offering suggestions and perhaps politely asking if a refund were not possible, despite the clear rules. Instead, we see accusations, insults and threats posted here (about sending lawyers to WGT.com, etc.).

  tibbets:

  Discretion, it would seem, is a concept lost on some.

  Discretion can hardly be expected by those who engage in unsuitable behaviour themselves: posting insults or threats, veiled attacks on others, etc.

  Everything can be accomplished when there is good-will towards everyone, and willingness to cooperate with everyone, rather than the urge to attack and condemn.

• 5419 79 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:45 AM

  AtlantaCoaster:

  WGT has really never "forced" anyone to pay for anything.  While I am not intending to  "defend" WGT or their business practices - I am not seeking to indict either.  

  You are right, no one has forced players to pay. From a business standpoint, WGT has a solid business plan. The more people like you who will buy products with blind faith, the more products they can sell to some, who  may not have blind faith. The must "keep up with the  Jones philosophy " This is an ego driven business plan, and by GOD, it is working.  If I play "match" it is getting impossible to find a player without some upgrade, and many who have everything that is made available. After 3 weeks of playing, I have come to the conclusion that either I upgrade or find another game. This is a good game, and personally in the 3 weeks that I have played, the glitch has happened at  infrequent times. The glitch is not hurting my game. Going against the upgrades is a problem for us who are still on regular clubs

  I say to successful business people, keep up the good work, for that is what has made the American economy the greatest in the world. I would also say to businessmen everywhere--When you begin to screw around your customers, all your good ideas and hard work are destined to be found in the trash can.

  It is simple, post your refund policy, stick with it, and this thread would die.

  I own a fruit stand. At the front door I have a sign. No refunds. If you bought bad fruit, ask the Lord for a refund. I get a lot of laughs, and most important, I do not have a refund problem

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:49 AM

  Calling people whiners and complainers is unsuitable, you are correct.  Doing so is not a veiled attack or insult, it is a very overt one.

  Discretion is not an expectation here, merely a hope and suggestion.  Flame-baiting is the norm it would seem and is being reported as such.

  /thread. (apologies to Vgolfmaster)

• EllisSpice 871 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 7:55 AM

  I'm a free member, so I expect my opinion to be seen as null and void to say. But I'll say it anyway.

  I don't buy clubs for two major reasons:

  a. Better clubs wouldn't improve my rubbish skills

  b. I don't have the money to pay to new clubs

  I do have one upgraded club though, that I got though my tier upgrade. It's a driver, and gives me an amazing 5 yards extra. Not a lot, but meh. It was free.

  Anyway, back on topic. It is a person's choice to buy something from this game. Yes, it is in BETA, but that shouldn't mean anything. When GMail was in BETA (and was for 5 years, too), people could BUY, with their money, extra space. People did so, without even thinking about the whole BETA part.

  WGT needs the money it gets from players in order to get out of BETA in the first place. More clubs sold = more money. More money = More courses etc. More courses = More players, and more players = more clubs sold. This cycle will keep going until one thing happens:

  a. WGT is rich enough to bring itself out of BETA

  b. Something breaks the cycle, and therefore WGT is doomed.

  It is a win-win for most people. They get better clubs, and play better and as such have a better experience, and WGT stays alive for another day. Sure, they will be the odd person not happy with what they got, but that happens in every business in the world. As the saying goes:

  'You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time'.

• Vgolfmaster 68 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:01 AM

  Is it possible for WGT to fall back on its blanket 'no-refunds' policy if it wishes? Yes, absolutely. unfortunately for them, they have already shown that they make exceptions to this term, as they admittedly have refunded monies for others who have run in to game 'glitches'. So much for that precident. The point is, a blanket 'no refund' policy is simply not open and honest, and needs to be changed. Assuming, that is, that WGT does not address this situation in any of the other ways that have discussed and suggested here.  

  I will not, for now at least, discuss the specifics of my exchange with WGT in regards to this, as I am awaiting a reply from them on their decision and will, for now, honor their request to not discuss it with other members.

  The fact that this and other similar threads are stirring up so much passionate debate on this subject should go a long way towards showing you, and hopefully WGT, that their policy leaves a lot to be desired. If this motivates them to change, so be it, if not, it is their business decision to make. I simply want a fair and honest decision to be made in regards to my request, one of which you do not know the details of, unless you are somehow privvy to WGT E-mails.

  I am not trying to tell them what to do, and I am not here slamming other users in order to make myself feel more important. I am not here accusing others of using multiple alias's in order to prove my worldly knowledge. I am here trying to constructively debate an issues which I think is important to the long term success of WGT. Can you say the same?

• 5419 79 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 10:09 AM

  Faterson:

  Here is what the Terms and Conditions say, in capital letters, no less:

  In all due respect to you. It is safe to say that 95% of the people who see this automatically check off without reading. That is called human laziness.

  I do believe that anything as important as refunds should be posted at the time of your purchase. I think you would find most of the very successful business owners demand that the customer be told not in fine print, but at the time of his purchase, what the refund policy is. When a business fails to do this, they are taking a chance that the consumer will feel that they were trying to "put one over" on them.

  This just boils down to good business, and good business gets repeat sales, bad business is called Enron If you are up front with a customer, it may cost you a sale, but in the long run, will lead to more sales and customer satisfaction

• WGTalex 2,087 Posts

  Tue, Dec 15 2009 11:04 AM

  Thanks for all the feedback, and the effort being made to keep the topic on track. If more insults fly, this thread will be locked.

  We make an effort to let people know that all purchases are final, but please make sure you read our terms of service so you know what you signed up for. Before making a pro shop purchase, you should see this text: "All purchases are not refundable or exchangeable." We will also make this information more clear on our Buy Credits page.

  As stated, there have been times when we've made an exception--for example, when a known bug or glitch caused an imminent loser in a match play challenge to be awarded the credit pot. In these cases, we issued credits that they should have won. We will continue to consider these, and other issues, on a case-by-case basis.

  We don't intend to change our terms of service simply because we've made a few exceptions like these. They are sometimes necessary in the course of running the business and treating our customers fairly. The refund policy still stands, and we still intend to make exceptions sometimes if it is the right thing to do, for both the players and WGT.