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The story of shaya

• drmoose 3,532 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 12:02 PM

  YankeeJim:

  Yet you'd prefer to blow everything up and start over? Where did chaos ever prove to be a viable plan?

   

  Jim, 

  That is not what I meant at all. There are certain areas of the current power structure that the vast majority of Americans would be far better off without. Instead of fostering an atmosphere that encourages such abuses of power, my hope is that a change may lead to some long overdue reform. I do not advocate anarchy, but neither am I willing to settle for the status quo.

  Doc :)

• mkg335 5,491 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 12:04 PM

  Lee, the following is from the official US govt site concerning the Electoral College:

  "The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Constitution does not require that Electors be completely free to act as they choose and therefore, political parties may extract pledges from electors to vote for the parties’ nominees. Some State laws provide that so-called "faithless Electors"; may be subject to fines or may be disqualified for casting an invalid vote and be replaced by a substitute elector. The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No Elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged.

  Today, it is rare for Electors to disregard the popular vote by casting their electoral vote for someone other than their party’s candidate. Electors generally hold a leadership position in their party or were chosen to recognize years of loyal service to the party. Throughout our history as a nation, more than 99 percent of Electors have voted as pledged."

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 6:06 PM

  drmoose:

  mkg335:

  Economies tend to evolve from agriculture to manufacturing to service and high tech and communication...doubtful that manufacturing will ever be viable here again.

  Mark,

  I respect your opinions, it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle, but, we definately need to strike some kind of balance. Not all of us can be money brokers, politicians, health care providers, you name it. Some of us have to make the items that people consume. As such, I'd like a little more level playing field.

  Doc :(

  Very tough one.

  As consumers we are all guilty too.........I recently bought a perfectly fine smartphone from china (online store).  $100 all up delivered.  Runs everything fine...I will leave the latest greatest bloatware editions for those that think they can count grains of sand at 30 paces on a beach, and think phone cameras is more than close and poor race of happy snappers - Crotchety old git moment.  Point really is we all tend to buy the best value, expect it to be cheaper and better than the last one and we don't really stop to ask how and at what cost at point of purchase.

  And yes roughly speaking we went hunter gather to agrarian, then the industrial revolution and now globilisation.  We still don't understand the latter and people are scared chitless fiddling with it...........I do hope some centre ground can somehow be found, but stand as guilty as most out of the consumers.

   

• drmoose 3,532 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 6:54 PM

  Jimbo, 

  A deal is a deal, guilty as charged. Many of the raw materials I use in manufacturing are procured from overseas. This is how it starts. Foreign countries with lower labor costs first target raw materials, after that, since manufacturing them is no longer fiscally viable in the US, they target finished products that are imported to our country without any duty attached. This eliminates millions, if not billions of manufacturing jobs that are sorely needed. Washington can fudge the figures all they want, ask the man on the street "what's in your wallet" he'll tell you. The simple fact is that corporate access to the powers that be needs to be done away with, plain an' simple. Not easily done, granted, but if we are to survive without living a life of eternal servitude, a move that must be made.

  Doc :)

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 8:41 PM

  drmoose:

  Jimbo, 

  A deal is a deal, guilty as charged. Many of the raw materials I use in manufacturing are procured from overseas. This is how it starts. Foreign countries with lower labor costs first target raw materials, after that, since manufacturing them is no longer fiscally viable in the US, they target finished products that are imported to our country without any duty attached. This eliminates millions, if not billions of manufacturing jobs that are sorely needed. Washington can fudge the figures all they want, ask the man on the street "what's in your wallet" he'll tell you. The simple fact is that corporate access to the powers that be needs to be done away with, plain an' simple. Not easily done, granted, but if we are to survive without living a life of eternal servitude, a move that must be made.

  Doc :)

  Good points, well presented Doc, if I may say............Another thing lacking from modern stuff is the ability to listen to all good points......Start transposing to politics if not careful, but think we understand:)

• lee22sharon 1,419 Posts

  Wed, May 4 2016 9:07 PM

  mkg335:

  Lee, the following is from the official US govt site concerning the Electoral College:

  "The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Constitution does not require that Electors be completely free to act as they choose and therefore, political parties may extract pledges from electors to vote for the parties’ nominees. Some State laws provide that so-called "faithless Electors"; may be subject to fines or may be disqualified for casting an invalid vote and be replaced by a substitute elector. The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No Elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged.

  Today, it is rare for Electors to disregard the popular vote by casting their electoral vote for someone other than their party’s candidate. Electors generally hold a leadership position in their party or were chosen to recognize years of loyal service to the party. Throughout our history as a nation, more than 99 percent of Electors have voted as pledged."

  It is, as written, and recognized, a very loosly worded guidline at best.  Even 1% over the last 230 some odd years, is way to much.

  Why does it exist? So political parties can extract pledges from electors?  Why is that?  Very simply it is a consolidation of power from the many to the few for the beneifit of those few!

  This is only 1 example as to why the complete election system needs to be repaired.  

  To much power is just simply "given" to those who are known to abuse it.  my nickle.

   

• 1,866 Posts

  Fri, May 6 2016 1:33 AM

  YankeeJim:

  My hope is that not only do the Democrats grab the WH, they also pick up a balancing majority in the Senate or HOR. Then something will get done and it won't involve a war.

  Well, shouldn't make any difference to me, lol. But I agree 100% anyway ;-)

  Although (my personal view), nobody can really thrive (looooong term) in democracy. Cause it's set up in a way, where almost nothing major can get done. It's a victim of Mr. Gauss. Majority always  consists the most mediocre individuals, who are also most vulnerable to manipulation. And nothing good ever came from mediocracy.

  A dictatorship at least has a chance, that someone capable and honest will call the shots, albeit only a theoretical chance, lol. Unfortunately, there's a tendency, that people on power abuse it, but it's the same, if only a few or many people hold that power. 

  Don't shoot me over this, but if the ancient Egypt, Rome or Greece were ruled by democracy alone, they wouldn't last as long as they did ;-)

   

  P.S.: Still prefer democracy and freedom, I just think things can't really improve either way ;-(

   

  P.P.S.: Can anyone tell I'm coming from a former socialist country, lol?

• Jimbog1964 8,378 Posts

  Sat, May 7 2016 3:40 AM

  mkrizan86:

  YankeeJim:

  My hope is that not only do the Democrats grab the WH, they also pick up a balancing majority in the Senate or HOR. Then something will get done and it won't involve a war.

  Well, shouldn't make any difference to me, lol. But I agree 100% anyway ;-)

  Although (my personal view), nobody can really thrive (looooong term) in democracy. Cause it's set up in a way, where almost nothing major can get done. It's a victim of Mr. Gauss. Majority always  consists the most mediocre individuals, who are also most vulnerable to manipulation. And nothing good ever came from mediocracy.

  A dictatorship at least has a chance, that someone capable and honest will call the shots, albeit only a theoretical chance, lol. Unfortunately, there's a tendency, that people on power abuse it, but it's the same, if only a few or many people hold that power. 

  Don't shoot me over this, but if the ancient Egypt, Rome or Greece were ruled by democracy alone, they wouldn't last as long as they did ;-)

   

  P.S.: Still prefer democracy and freedom, I just think things can't really improve either way ;-(

   

  P.P.S.: Can anyone tell I'm coming from a former socialist country, lol?

  Who was it said a dictatorship is the strongest and most robust authority possible, and remains so right up to the moment it implodes to absolute chaos.

  Also (not googling) I think Rome and Greece did great things with v early forms of democracy, and Rome declined under supreme Emperors.  

  Winston mused, " the best argument against democracy is 5 minutes talking to the average voter."  I think Winston fully accepted the alternatives to it still suck large though:)

• ct690911 7,202 Posts

  Sat, May 7 2016 4:18 AM

  "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

  Lord Acton