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Lip outs:

• Luckystar5 1,636 Posts

  Mon, Sep 17 2018 3:46 PM

  Given a variation,  or deviation,  then you still inputted the wrong data, not on purpose, but still it was wrong.  Ie . if a green speed is said to be 13, but variations are actually 12.8 green speed, , then a 2 foot putt doesn't change, but from 20 feet, your speed is too hot, resulting in a missed putt, maybe the infamous lip out. This happens alot in clash events, the same as in wind speeds, that's why it's listed as 28-30 mph, anywhere between those 2.  May not make a difference at 85 yards, but try it at 210 yards, a world of difference in the landing spot of the ball. We all have experienced high cross winds, we compensated, and the ball didnt move off line like we expected, but the wind didn't blow, or trees blocked the wind etc, still in all we inputted incorrect data, again not on purpose, but we still did. 

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Mon, Sep 17 2018 3:50 PM

  Luckystar5:

  Given a variation,  or deviation,  then you still inputted the wrong data, not on purpose, but still it was wrong.

  You can't say "given a deviation," that's what causes the result. The input can be exactly correct and that deviation skews it.

  Deviation, the bane of spreadsheet golfers because they can't predict it.  :-)

• Luckystar5 1,636 Posts

  Mon, Sep 17 2018 4:01 PM

  You're correct, I improperly stated, meant to say was that with a variation or deviation, that is unknown, then.................

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Mon, Sep 17 2018 5:11 PM

  YankeeJim:

  This is exactly what makes this game as realistic as it is.

  I get the point you are attempting to make... but WGT is a long ways from realistic or comparable to the real world.  Some aspects seem to be implemented but it is still a pretty controlled environment for those playing... it has it's moments when we get frustrated … but we get frustrated because we know or begin to expect far better outcomes than any of us are likely capable of shooting in the real world...

  I have never seen a large group of pro's all shoot  -19 under par and better just to qualify for the US Amatuer let alone the US Open.  Scoring is absurdly low and many come to expect that...  I am still not at that level yet, but I often expect better because I watch and see how well others are doing... so I know it is possible...  maybe only 1 out of every 20 rounds I play... LOL but I know it is possible....

  And while I still disagree in part with #Lucky on inputs being either right or wrong... it is a scenario where both people can be correct in one aspect of the discussion...

  because the correct input can be input and it will work... and the very same input you deemed to be correct based on your experience or spreadsheet may not work the next time... not because it was "entirely incorrect" but that the output of the algorithm changes possibly because of a built in type of random generator or something like it that also calculates that same shot gives a different result... 

  it isn't 2 + 2 = 4

  but rather 2 + (2 * (random deviation factor of +or- .98)) = ~3.98-4.02 or something in that range.

  this is overly simplistic but I think it is the idea only far more complex...

  so two identical examples exact same input one works one doesn't... both "technically correct" but the "result generated" isn't always the same.  ….

  It is in part why people can have similar experiences … and seemingly argue over the same thing and without unraveling the nitty details realize they may both be correct to a certain degree but there are other nuances involved.  we end up getting caught up in the "words' or details... doesn't make anyone completely wrong but usually reflects the perspective they have or how they are looking at it... 

  it is also why it can be helpful thinking through different shots with fellow members or watching videos of top players... sometimes we see that we can try something differently and give ourselves more changes of making easier putts rather than the more difficult ones.  but that is a whole different topic.... 

   

   

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Tue, Sep 18 2018 5:29 AM

  el3n1:

  I have never seen a large group of pro's all shoot  -19 under par and better just to qualify for the US Amatuer let alone the US Open. 

  Add 10 strokes to every score you see and that takes the numbers out of it and  it becomes  realistic. Swinging an actual club is a hell of a lot harder than clicking a mouse.

  I defy anyone to watch a pro tour event and deny this game is as real as it can get on a computer. Take the VEM and deviation away and you get TW golf.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Tue, Sep 18 2018 9:17 AM

  YankeeJim:

  Add 10 strokes to every score you see and that takes the numbers out of it and  it becomes  realistic.

  I get what your trying to suggest... but you still don't see over 30 people shooting -9 in one round of golf during a tour event.  A few go low the rest are dispersed from there.  In some events you may see close to 30 people at -9 after 4 rounds of golf on some courses.

  But overall the game plays far easier than real life not only because of the mouse being used but because so many factors can be broken down to a certain extent.  

  Tour pros obviously map their clubs... they know their yardages as well as anyone... some have even gone pretty far in trying to analyze the game further "mathematically" from what I have heard and read.  You see more players using track man's, talking trajectory, ball speed, spin rate, but are they "calculating shots" with the same accuracy as can often be done on WGT... I don't think they are there yet, but it appears more are taking a more analytical approach to the game.  

  UEL is possibly the closest to trying to mimmick real life but many say the shots are grossly exaggerated and unrealistic as well.  Even so...there are even WGT players have have built or created ways to "crack" UEL to a certain extent although the scoring is usually a bit lower than normal.  

  I never really played TW golf so I can't compare it.  But again we are only talking about a simulation... one that overall plays much easier than real life... of course you still have to figure out the shots and learn how to putt well and hope your meter doesn't flake out constantly... apparently there were new flash updates that may be screwing with the game play again... so there are many variables involved... not only WGT, vem, or deviation... 

• Mythanatos 2,203 Posts

  Tue, Sep 18 2018 9:36 AM

  few things on lipouts.

  I've had putts i thought were going to lip out that didn't. we just don't tend to remember the fortunate breaks like we do the bad ones.

   

  also just as a general point they shrink the "hole size" as you tier up. i can't tell you what tier is when they stop doing it but there is a difference.  

  some will doubt me but if so play in a lower coin room a dozen times or so as experiment and pay attention to what balls actually count as going in the hole. if a hack or amateur putts it, it doesn't even have to hit the hole that is on the screen.  shrinks some for pros and tour pros but still quite large.

  so what does that mean overall? 

  well it means that it's a variable they can adjust quite easily. there was an update a couple months ago that quite a few of us mobile types thought they tightened up the hole some more. 

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Tue, Sep 18 2018 10:47 AM

  Mythanatos:

  also just as a general point they shrink the "hole size"

  I have heard others suggest this, can't say it isn't a possibility either but hard to confirm... maybe it is those instances when the "hole has been shrunk" where putts that would normally fall don't and that is what causes or creates the "vapor ghost like trail" on those putts...  I always figured it was something like VEM or other game attributes that can be changed...

  when you consider the introduction of the sponsor apparel club attributes (enhancements) and consider how much of the game can be tweaked or to improve club performance … it stands to reason there are any number of other "variables" that can also be tweaked to "tighten the game up".... which some would love to see happen more so and others would like to see go away...  

   

• pmm711 5,516 Posts

  Tue, Sep 18 2018 10:49 AM

  Mythanatos:

  also just as a general point they shrink the "hole size" as you tier up.

  The first 4 characters of your WGT name is the only thing that comes to mind in response to that remark.