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Prize pool discussion - From July Update thread

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Fri, Jul 1 2022 4:52 AM (10 replies)
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  • WGTNico
    210 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:07 PM

    Ima respond to the stuff regarding real life prizes and country restrictions in the best way and as transparent as I can without getting in trouble.

    The country specific gambling thing was set in a time/world where real life prizes in a video stemming from giveaways, esports, etc. were seen as something "newer" at least in the world of indie games which we still are. As time has gone on, I've noticed a lot of these things change, I've personally worked major Esports tournaments in NA for a game where players from all over were allowed to participate outside of a select I think like 3 countries in the world but those are actively blocked from doing much and not set by the game itself.

    Now when I personally joined here, I've been wanting to work on making these prizes more accessible to more countries, but it wasn't something I can just try and push for right away. I know many countries have changed their prizing rules as esports and gaming at the world level have become more accessible to anyone and everywhere so I really do think it's time for WGT to setup another meeting with legal where we look into HOPEFULLY easing the prize accessibility a bit and allowing more Countries to be eligible. 

    Does this mean changes will for sure be happening, well ultimately that's not up to me, and it will probably take a long time. Even just getting the Discord approved took longer than I expected. I will be using the links Yiannis sent and any other links regarding prizes in gaming I've found and others may send to me at anytime and bringing that to my higher ups.

    There's a lot of legal stuff that goes way over my head, I'm just the community guy but I do represent you all and I definitely think it's time where more people are eligible for prizes so too long don't read: I'm trying.

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:19 PM

    Thanks for the response Nico. Can you create another thread by moving the posts in order to continue the discussion? I realize that's not your call whether WGT will honor its name ''World Golf Tour'' by giving the chance to most people winning prizes, but imo opinion it would be useful if the discussion continues in  a separate thread.

  • WGTNico
    210 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:33 PM

    just moved it to here, our forums are old and it's way too difficult to move each other individual info but i think it's still relevant to have my post as first for the conversation 

  • SimonTheBeetle
    2,828 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:36 PM

    When I was residing in a different country other than the one I am currently, I have consulted a law firm in the jurisdiction, specifically asking about this since I found extremely bizarro that I could win VUSO/VUSA trips & prizes but not Amazon vouchers. They confirmed there was no gambling law whatsoever preventing anyone to win such prizes in the country, and yet, I couldn't win certain prizes at all.

    It appears that WGT simply exclude any and all countries in which they choose to believe or judge there is ambiguity(ies) in the country's gambling-related laws and regulations. For the company, it's a much cheaper, safer & easier way to deal with, rather than closely looking into all relevant laws & regulations, case by case for each country.

    In a way, it's understandable since some gaming laws are vague enough that it is unclear whether WGT would fall under their remit or not. The fact that shots have a random deviation makes this game like Poker - part skill & part chance. Players put credits ("money") into the game, and giving them the option to cash out, could then potentially make WGT a gambling company in some jurisdictions. This is illegal in some places, but in others might require WGT to have a gaming licence which would be massively expensive. The only safe way for them is to prevent cashing out from countries where they can't be sure how the law will be applied.

    Ideally, they would identify and contact every gaming body in every jurisdiction of the Globe and specifically find out the standing of a game like WGT, but as you can imagine, this would be a mammoth task for the company.

    This is, however, the situation we had IN THE PAST where cash-out could ultimately be possible via vouchers & gift cards, but as of now, since this option has been removed, I believe WGT should look at and update the eligibility criteria again.

    Moved mine here. Thanks for doing this, Nico. ­čĹŹ

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:37 PM

    Thank you Nico. I will copy paste some responses (guys can do the same if they will) and will find all the stuff i have written to WGT years back about this issue.

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:41 PM

    Because Jonas, as i said and also Sam mentioned, it's just ridiculous!!! There is absolutely no restriction in Greek legislation about gambling from 2011 (excluding the minors of course). Considering of course WGT is a ''gambling'' game which is absolutely wrong!!! Noone would classify WGT as a gambling game, not even a 1st year law school student.

     

     

    https://www.safebettingsites.com/gr/

    https://www.fonbet.gr/landings/casino/?partner=google&campaignid=15423275889&adgroupid=127221848781&keyword=greek%20casino%20sites&device=c&gclid=CjwKCAjwk_WVBhBZEiwAUHQCmbHyDXhm_XMBqNSO8MmUo9eJrqC2o5Swi4o4RAoZyTpFQWecfpO5LxoCeRkQAvD_BwE

     

    https://www.stoiximan.gr/deals/master/?siteid=538&gclid=CjwKCAjwk_WVBhBZEiwAUHQCmQnaAp5XEqfJ7eHML_RG9XHI-SYeF0hwCRnJtOW-e5fJIvxPXTCOBxoCadwQAvD_BwE

     

    https://media.pamestoixima.gr/casino/welcome-up-to-1000/index.html?gSC=cmpt&gclid=CjwKCAjwk_WVBhBZEiwAUHQCmXpkCx0qhJeA5TSMHISblHEJNtFO1dQIVL-dxCkut8H7ZzNXYlgPaRoCdKAQAvD_BwE

     

    https://www.novibet.gr/casino

     

     

    i can provide 100 more....

     

     

    And i repeat once more...there are no restrictions playing and winning prizes and money on E-Tour. These guys do not know the legislation around the globe and WGT does??

     

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Thu, Jun 30 2022 12:50 PM

    Ok...let's see what we have here:

     

    2. Eligibility.

           Participation in the Contest is open to individuals who are 18 years of age or older.  Note, however, that only individuals who are legal residents of and physically located in the fifty United States and the District of Columbia, Canada (excluding Quebec), the United Kingdom, Germany, Australia, Norway, Ireland, The Netherlands, and South Korea who are 18 years of age or older or the age of majority in the entrant's state or province/territory ("province") of residence, whichever is greater are eligible to win prizes.

     

    Question No1:

    Legal residents and physically located.

     

    Please someone explain to me like if i was 6 years old (as Denzel would say) how on earth WGT can determine the residency and the physical presence of the person who plays WGT from a PC, tablet whatever!!! I am all ears....don't tell me from his IP cause i will start laughing.

     

    And let's move to a bit more complicated legal matters:

     

    Please someone explain to me like if i was 6 years old (as Denzel would say) how on earth WGT can determine the LEGALITY of the residence.

     

    Let's start with these 2 simple questions.

     

  • NrEighteen
    956 Posts
    Fri, Jul 1 2022 12:41 AM

    Thank you Nico for taking the time to reply. 

    I understand that there are a few historical perspectives that once felt relevant, but I can assure you that not even at that time my country had any restrictions regarding esports and/or internet based gambling. 

    In fact, in Sweden esport is an official sport since forever with its own federation and are considered as one of the leading nations. (Dreamhack was created here back in the 90´s, imagine that)

    To me, any decisions regarding eligibility feels rather random, which is (was) okay considering the original indie theme of the game. 

    However, if WGT want to take the next step to keep growing and establish itself as an esport game, this need to be resolved. There are many out there waiting to participate and hopefully contribute to a true international representation.  

    /J

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Fri, Jul 1 2022 3:35 AM

    Some archive threads i found: (year 2018)

     

    https://www.wgt.com/forums/t/544993.aspx?PageIndex=1

     

    lonnie:

     

    @ Yiannis   Actually you are excluded by your countries laws . Even though your country does allow casino gambling . It does not allow online gambling of any kind .  The law which bans on line gambling does not differentiate between online gambling and web based video games . 

    So in your country WGT is considered an online gambling game , which is prohibited by your countries laws . If you google "Greece gaming laws " you can read up on this . Its what I did .The law 3037/ 2002 is the law which explains this .

    So now you know why you dont qualify for these tournaments .

     

     

    Response:

     

    No Lonnie....3037 is covering another field and context, does not concern every person who plays online games from his home but only those who run internet cafes o provide illegal means publicly for card games via net. If 3037 had an application as you intend, we all would have been in jail just for playing WGT....No, no, absolutely not this case.

     

    Further more, 3037 has been abolished by Law 4002/2011 article 54.

     

    I don't really know what their knowledge is about this matter alosso, but i can assure everyone that in my country there is no prohibitive law about winning prizes on net games...at least not like wgt game. So, if they still stay with 3037/2002, i believe they should make some homework after 7 years (2011).

     

    World Golf Tour:

     


     

     

    I believe it's time for some things to be changed....

  • Yiannis1970
    2,756 Posts
    Fri, Jul 1 2022 4:18 AM

    Yiannis1970:

    Ok...let's see what we have here:

     

    2. Eligibility.

           Participation in the Contest is open to individuals who are 18 years of age or older.  Note, however, that only individuals who are legal residents of and physically located in the fifty United States and the District of Columbia, Canada (excluding Quebec), the United Kingdom, Germany, Australia, Norway, Ireland, The Netherlands, and South Korea who are 18 years of age or older or the age of majority in the entrant's state or province/territory ("province") of residence, whichever is greater are eligible to win prizes.

     

    Question No1:

    Legal residents and physically located.

     

    Please someone explain to me like if i was 6 years old (as Denzel would say) how on earth WGT can determine the residency and the physical presence of the person who plays WGT from a PC, tablet whatever!!! I am all ears....don't tell me from his IP cause i will start laughing.

     

    And let's move to a bit more complicated legal matters:

     

    Please someone explain to me like if i was 6 years old (as Denzel would say) how on earth WGT can determine the LEGALITY of the residence.

     

    Let's start with these 2 simple questions.

     

     

    Let's move a bit ahead and let's clear some other things. Wgt is using the term: Residency and in detail: Legal residency.

     

    Nationality, citizenship, residency and other terms:

     

    Nationality

     
    Nationality, often used as a synonym for citizenship, is the state of being part of a nation whether by birth or naturalization or ties to a specific nation. (minor objections here but as a general definition is quite correct....in many many occasions nationality differs from citizenship)

     

    Domicile

     
    Domicile is the country that a person treats as their permanent home, or lives in and has a substantial connection with. However, domicile is, in common law jurisdictions, a different legal concept to residence, though the two may often lead to the same result.

     

    Residency

     
    Residency can also refer to domicile and is the act of establishing or maintaining a residence in a given country despite not necessarily having citizenship.

     

    Pretty confusing, isn't it? Let me try to explain:

    Domicile is the place where a person actual lives, stays, works, in other words is a physical resident of this place. Residence is the place where a person can live for a certain amout of time, can work for a certain amount of time, can be present there for a certain amount of time. Hope is more clear now.

     

    Citizenship

     
    Citizenship is the status of a person recognized under the custom or law as being a legal member of a sovereign state or belonging to a nation. In some countries, e.g. the USA and UK, nationality and citizenship can have different meanings. (not only in US and UK but in 99% of the countries...)

     

     

    Example: I was born and raised in US (nationality), i have a double citizenship US and UK (which means i am subject to US/UK jurisdiction), my domicile is in US (live, work etc) but my (legal or not legal) resident for 6 months every year is in Burundi.

     

     

     

     

     

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