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Sat, Sep 24 2022 6:17 PM (29 replies)
  • JDGHOST
    6,247 Posts
    Wed, Jul 20 2022 7:55 AM

    Ok so Just my thoughts ...Here goes 

    So I play with some great players from time to time and I play much more often with players that are "Capable" of great scores...  some guys in  my club are very very good Even myself (I say with all modesty) We are ALL capable of those great rounds and low numbers.

    What's the difference between a very good player who does lay down the 18-20 under par round from time to time and the Best on WGT? 

    For "The Best"... These guys take the "Feel" outta the game

    They have all mastered the mathematics and the algorithms...They have developed formulas  for shots and putting that are almost like having the "Pac-Man cheat codes in the 80's!! (Not to say any of um are cheating)

    Now once you have these said formulas sitting next to your computer (Or on a separate computer screen) while your playing ( Oh yeah some actually run their formulas on another screen as they play) it comes down to only 2 variables left for these guys.

    #1 Hit the ding!    And  #2 allow for the occasional WGT "That don't add up? BS"

    These guys use calculators, spreadsheets, Wind gauges, protractors, trigonometry,  Advanced Calculus and Linear Algebra to formulate a shot or putt...They may even use Microscopes to read the dots on screen  and I'm pretty sure I even seen Young46 using an Abacus in a live stream (kidding Jason) 

    So basically 98% of the "guess work" has been eliminated from the game.  And ALL the "Feel" is gone...

    Now I personally can't and wouldn't want to play that way I am to "Right-brained".  Nor do I have the patience lol  (To each his/her own) I have never even used a calculator and have zero notes on any course or hole in the game. Now that's not to say I don't use a "formula" or have notes... But mine are just crammed in to my undersized brain. I go off  of memory on shots, holes and putts and I use a ton of "Feel" another words I may hit a certain putt a little harder and it breaks less.... I hit it softer it breaks more...I hit a shot "off" ding on design and therefore I play less wind on that shot  that it shows ...Things like that, These guys generally DON'T do that ...They pretty much play 100% Ding shots because their formulas are based on a "Dinged" shot or putt.

     IMHO Josh (Smithers) amazes and is somewhat of  an anomaly in the group of "The Best on WGT" I know he does have basic formulas... BUT is very much a feel player at the same time. And he plays so fast I'm pretty sure he is not crunching numbers on multiple devices and using his handy  anemometer for wind every shot! There might be a few other top guns who play this way as well but unlikely.

    So inconclusion what I'm saying is if your willing to do enough research in obtaining an almost foolproof  formula (Young offers up his on twitch) Or develop your own  put in the work of "Truly" mapping every course, every hole, every club AND shot type in your bag combined with a ton of practicing on hitting the ding near 95% of the time....You can become as good as anyone on the Game!

    Oh last thought I have watched Young46 demonstrate his "Putting formula"  a few times and have no clue what the hell I'm looking at? Kinda feet Like Marty McFly watching Doc Brown explain Time Travel!!

  • Mythanatos
    2,141 Posts
    Wed, Jul 20 2022 8:09 AM

    PureGro1:
    What I mean is- The holes you draw are as important as anything in determining your end score, I've had SDs where I draw a LOT of par 5s and as expected you score better. Also had SDs that were loaded with par 3's and that is tough to score as well on, coupled with the different conditions.

     

    Everyone plays the exact same sets of 3 holes in a showdown.

    The variances are as always wind direction. 

    Wind strength (this is the biggest difference between who shoots -20 and who shoots -16 or -17 in the veteran showdown.) 

    Green speeds are random as well.

     

     

  • ct690911
    6,875 Posts
    Wed, Jul 20 2022 11:51 AM

    JDGHOST:

    Ok so Just my thoughts ...Here goes 

    So I play with some great players from time to time and I play much more often with players that are "Capable" of great scores...  some guys in  my club are very very good Even myself (I say with all modesty) We are ALL capable of those great rounds and low numbers.

    What's the difference between a very good player who does lay down the 18-20 under par round from time to time and the Best on WGT? 

    For "The Best"... These guys take the "Feel" outta the game

    They have all mastered the mathematics and the algorithms...They have developed formulas  for shots and putting that are almost like having the "Pac-Man cheat codes in the 80's!! (Not to say any of um are cheating)

    Now once you have these said formulas sitting next to your computer (Or on a separate computer screen) while your playing ( Oh yeah some actually run their formulas on another screen as they play) it comes down to only 2 variables left for these guys.

    #1 Hit the ding!    And  #2 allow for the occasional WGT "That don't add up? BS"

    These guys use calculators, spreadsheets, Wind gauges, protractors, trigonometry,  Advanced Calculus and Linear Algebra to formulate a shot or putt...They may even use Microscopes to read the dots on screen  and I'm pretty sure I even seen Young46 using an Abacus in a live stream (kidding Jason) 

    So basically 98% of the "guess work" has been eliminated from the game.  And ALL the "Feel" is gone...

    Now I personally can't and wouldn't want to play that way I am to "Right-brained".  Nor do I have the patience lol  (To each his/her own) I have never even used a calculator and have zero notes on any course or hole in the game. Now that's not to say I don't use a "formula" or have notes... But mine are just crammed in to my undersized brain. I go off  of memory on shots, holes and putts and I use a ton of "Feel" another words I may hit a certain putt a little harder and it breaks less.... I hit it softer it breaks more...I hit a shot "off" ding on design and therefore I play less wind on that shot  that it shows ...Things like that, These guys generally DON'T do that ...They pretty much play 100% Ding shots because their formulas are based on a "Dinged" shot or putt.

     IMHO Josh (Smithers) amazes and is somewhat of  an anomaly in the group of "The Best on WGT" I know he does have basic formulas... BUT is very much a feel player at the same time. And he plays so fast I'm pretty sure he is not crunching numbers on multiple devices and using his handy  anemometer for wind every shot! There might be a few other top guns who play this way as well but unlikely.

    So inconclusion what I'm saying is if your willing to do enough research in obtaining an almost foolproof  formula (Young offers up his on twitch) Or develop your own  put in the work of "Truly" mapping every course, every hole, every club AND shot type in your bag combined with a ton of practicing on hitting the ding near 95% of the time....You can become as good as anyone on the Game!

    Oh last thought I have watched Young46 demonstrate his "Putting formula"  a few times and have no clue what the hell I'm looking at? Kinda feet Like Marty McFly watching Doc Brown explain Time Travel!!

    One has to wonder where the fun is in making the game so easy to play. "Feel", and the risk of the unknown is what helps make the game fun. I don't see any enjoyment in knowing what is going to happen before the ball is even hit. 

    ct

  • pmm711
    5,119 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 1:20 AM

    ct690911:

    One has to wonder where the fun is in making the game so easy to play. "Feel", and the risk of the unknown is what helps make the game fun. I don't see any enjoyment in knowing what is going to happen before the ball is even hit. 

    ct

    Think $

     

     

  • ct690911
    6,875 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 2:34 AM

    pmm711:

    ct690911:

    One has to wonder where the fun is in making the game so easy to play. "Feel", and the risk of the unknown is what helps make the game fun. I don't see any enjoyment in knowing what is going to happen before the ball is even hit. 

    ct

    Think $

    If people are willing to put in the amount of work that JD suggests for the sole purpose of winning tournaments, I would suggest there are a hell of a lot of ways to make even more money with less work and dedication...lol

  • PureGro1
    1,305 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 8:43 AM

    Mythanatos:

    Everyone plays the exact same sets of 3 holes in a showdown.

    Thank you guys for answering that for me, never realized- Do you know is it the same series of Holes on all 3 levels Rookie, Veteran, Expert- of the SD?

    ct690911:
    If people are willing to put in the amount of work that JD suggests for the sole purpose of winning tournaments, I would suggest there are a hell of a lot of ways to make even more money with less work and dedication...lol

  • el3n1
    4,333 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 11:02 AM

    ct690911:
    If people are willing to put in the amount of work that JD suggests for the sole purpose of winning tournaments, I would suggest there are a hell of a lot of ways to make even more money with less work and dedication...lol

    very true - I believe I have heard / read that some of the chess players that stream are making upwards of 6 figures or more.  Maybe it is time to reconsider what game to stream.  LOL.

    JDGHOST:
    Ok so Just my thoughts ...Here goes 

    JD - what I believe you are touching on is very similar to other "gaming" assistance / tools used in other games as well - it is identified and referred to as "RTA" or Real Time Assistance - various things can fall under this category from charts, spreadsheets, coaching, formulas, solvers that essentially reverse engineer the game and increase the odds of making optimal decisions - or in the case of WGT - making more putts whether it is due to dialing in approach shots or calculating the break of the putt.

    The difference with other games and WGT - is RTA is regarded as cheating in live and major competitions - because the players gain an advanced edge over others unfairly.  Players get banned or can be kicked out of tournaments for it.  But not necessarily on WGT…

    RTA is almost glorified and honored on WGT by some as though it is the standard to match.  I find this discouraging, but also see people feel almost forced to participate in some form or another even if they don’t go to the extremes.  If anything it has been bad for the game and creating requirements to play nearly flawless or to get ideal or perfect winds just to be competitive, which makes it a bit of a lottery and not so much skill. 

    Consider this --- from what I understand the players association among others on the PGA tour took steps to revise the rules on putting greens for course notes allowed - because the game was starting to allow for more calculations being done on their own greens and they felt it was more important to highlight players skill, preparation, and own intuitive ability to read the greens - if you told one of these PGA players that they could count dots, then calculate the break and then calculate the precise speed to hit a putt to make it - do you really think they would call that golf or a math competition? 

    I am not even sure that is debatable anymore - it is definitely a math exercise with the hope of getting reasonable winds on the scoring holes.

    ----

    as for feel, possibly the most overused word on WGT - I have some thoughts on that too - but it would lengthen an already long post.  

  • JDGHOST
    6,247 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 3:11 PM

    el3n1:
    Consider this --- from what I understand the players association among others on the PGA tour took steps to revise the rules on putting greens for course notes allowed - because the game was starting to allow for more calculations being done on their own greens and they felt it was more important to highlight players skill, preparation, and own intuitive ability to read the greens - if you told one of these PGA players that they could count dots, then calculate the break and then calculate the precise speed to hit a putt to make it - do you really think they would call that golf or a math competition? 

    You are correct sir ...The PGA did in fact revamp the rules as far as 'Green books" but then they actually counteracted their own move by allowing players to now be able to fix ALL imperfections on the greens.. You will often see the players patting down every little spike mark with their putters ...this used to be a No-No! Go figure?

    I would love to see WGT do away with the "Dots" all together...Just keep the 3-D putting images (When you click the "Green view" icon) That would be refreshing.

  • Tabarnak777
    133 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 3:12 PM

    Mythanatos:

    PureGro1:
    What I mean is- The holes you draw are as important as anything in determining your end score, I've had SDs where I draw a LOT of par 5s and as expected you score better. Also had SDs that were loaded with par 3's and that is tough to score as well on, coupled with the different conditions.

     

    Everyone plays the exact same sets of 3 holes in a showdown.

    The variances are as always wind direction. 

    Wind strength (this is the biggest difference between who shoots -20 and who shoots -16 or -17 in the veteran showdown.) 

    Green speeds are random as well.

     

     

    Even pin locations are random.

  • FlyOverGolf
    7 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 3:34 PM

    My question is WHY would people cheat at this game? I have been playing for just over a couple months and find it very enjoyable. I guess I treat this game as if I were actually on the course, I tend to NOT do the math and not take a lot of time. It's more of a feel game to me instead of numbers game. I think it's fine either way I can see the attraction to both styles but to cheat is a bit sad. Do people consider the Putter Pal and Shot Pal cheats? I don't use them much unless I am breaking in new clubs, then when I get comfortable I stop. I like playing a more visceral game but I know I will never score as low as those that do the math. It's a disadvantage but I'm fine with it. 

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