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Resetting Averages, Stats, and Awards.

• Caven 63 Posts

  Thu, Mar 26 2009 11:57 AM

  I've been requesting a new "ranking" system for some time.  WGT has said repeatedly that they are considering and working on this.

  I offered on page 3 of this thread this link on how the USGA ranks players:

  http://www.officialworldgolfranking.com/about_us/default.sps?iType=425

  Some off shoot of this would be great.  A weighted ranking system by points of two 9 hole averages of front and back nine or one 18 round average, include free tournaments and a slight penalty for withdrawing, this could easily be formulated, the difficulty would lay in incorporating this into the game.

  WGT offers a variety of ways to play, and rightfully so.  Each player should have the option to play how he or she enjoys within WGT guidelines.  Not how someone might want them to play.

  As long as averages are the mainstay there will always be padding whether playing 18 or 9 holes.  This is currently a game of shooting for average against the course.

  I am all for resetting and developing a new means to calculate a leaderboard, but I have yet to read from anyone giving specific suggestions on how this should and could be done, until tomab did so in part.  And I have come to realize in whole this is a very intelligent community.

  WGT has been on top of any issue we throw at them, I am sure they will also solve this one with our help.

• tomab 517 Posts

  Thu, Mar 26 2009 12:05 PM

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  Hi Tibbets!

  It is not wery many players with as many rounds as you Tibbets. Most I guess is more around 100-150, and 30 out of 150 is 20%. But that discussion has no value regarding what we want with the stats. I want stats to be usefull for us players and mirror our current skill level.
  Therefore, if you read further on, I suggested that stats should be based on the last xx number of rounds, for instance last 50 rounds. Then the stats will show your current skill level. The number might be set higher, say 100. Higher value might be better for intense players like you, but of less value for players with 1-2 or less rounds per day. Therefore I am also open for the number as a user parameter. The drawback with that is that stats then will be calculated different for different players. I.e. stats for different players is not comparable any more.
  Alternatively the stats could be cleared when you change tier level. That also will work for most of us, but I prefere last # of rounds.

  You say «the opposit of what I say is true», and then you describe your 500 rounds and that you need 500 more rounds to get halfway to your current skill level. I don't follow you there. If stats only were calculated based on last 50 rounds as I suggested, you would not have had that problem.

  Tom.

   

• SlimShady 13 Posts

  Thu, Mar 26 2009 2:11 PM

   I definitely think that we need more groupings of players instead of just hack and amateur.  While I won a couple of gift certificates as a hack player, I won't even enter "pay" tournaments anymore since I can't match the level of obsession/scoring (nor do I want to, frankly) that the top ranked amateurs have for this game.  How about dumping those whose average is 64 or lower into a pro division?  I've played almost 100 rounds and I can't get anywhere near 65 as an average but I have tossed in a few low rounds using my "eyeball" technique...

• Thetruth67 158 Posts

  Fri, Mar 27 2009 7:24 AM

   Caven

  I think you and I are on the same page in regards to the following comment:

  Some off shoot of this would be great.  A weighted ranking system by points of two 9 hole averages of front and back nine or one 18 round average, include free tournaments and a slight penalty for withdrawing, this could easily be formulated, the difficulty would lay in incorporating this into the game.

  I am not sure what you mean by the following comment.  If it is in reference to only counting consecutive 9 hole scores, then I have to disagree.  What is the point of keeping a players average if  they only post 1 of every 15 rounds? 

   It has nothing to do with how I want a person to play.  It has to do with the averages being rendered useless with this type of activity.  If WGT is going to continue with this method their really is no point in creating different tiers.

  WGT offers a variety of ways to play, and rightfully so.  Each player should have the option to play how he or she enjoys within WGT guidelines.  Not how someone might want them to play.

    I don't disagree with what you are saying, but the point of my last post was to make it as difficult as possible to cheat, whether it be players cheating to create artificially high or low scores.   No Hack should be posting a 29 in a tourney and then ballooning their next round with a 40.  No Amature should be consistently posting -4, -5, or -6 and then have a tourney average of  -2, -1, or even par.

   Section 8-3d of the USGA Handicap System, which reads: "It is equitable, provided the failure of a player to return a low score is occasional or inadvertent, to enter a differential equal to the lowest of the differentials used to compute their last handicap."  

  As long as averages are the mainstay there will always be padding whether playing 18 or 9 holes.  This is currently a game of shooting for average against the course.

  The very term padding/sandbagging may be part of the problem. It's a cutesy word that covers up the nature of the crime. We might be better off calling a spade a spade, meaning that anyone who intentionally establishes a falsely high or low handicap is a cheater, no more or less than the golfer who mismarks his ball on the green or foot-wedges it in the rough.

• Caven 63 Posts

  Fri, Mar 27 2009 4:27 PM

  Great post Truth.

  I am starting to believe there may not be any conclusive means to prevent, in your words, cheating.  Myself, I believe that to be a very small number of people who inflate their average to win tournaments, but I agree it is not right.

  I believe SlimShady had a good point in creating more brackets, this coupled with a ranking system would further expose those who pad in order to win tournaments.

  I am not a left brain thinker and do not aspire in math, but the ranking system would take a persons average and give let's say 80% value.  Take the scores from free tournaments and give a 20% value.  If the person withdraws from a tournament a 5% penalty would be imposed on his ranking score.  Also a small penalty if a ranked round is not posted in a predetermined amount of time, say once a week.

  Only the top 100 in a bracket would be listed.  That would give 1/10th point for every place.  Same with tournaments.  If you are tibbets and are number 1 in average, and finish number 1 in a tournament his ranking number would be 10.  If I were number 10 in average and finish number 49 in a tournament, my ranking score would be 8.180.  (10th = 9 points (each place in the top 100 is one tenth) x .80; tournament - 49th =4.9 points x .20)

  This is just a hodge podge of what I'm trying to express.  Someone with average math skills could formulate much better I'm sure, and there are other variables to consider.  But I hope you get the drift.

  What this would do, I believe, is penalize some of the sandbagging while not penalizing those who play a purer game, and withdrawing from tournaments because of a poor score.  It would also give WGT more active tournaments.

  As I've said in the past, currently I don't think there is anything wrong with shooting for average.  I only play to shoot the best I can on that day, not caring about any standing or what anyone else is shooting.  Others play for the community experience, and that's great too.  But I whole heartedly agree that to shoot for a lower average for the sake of staying in a lower bracket is asinine.  A common sense ranking system, and more brackets closer matched, would alleviate much of these discrepancies.  But would not eliminate them all.

   

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Fri, Mar 27 2009 4:49 PM

   Many of these issues will indeed be rendered moot once more tiers are added.  They way I see it is, hey if you want to pad your average to keep it lower and end up in my tier, by all means go for it.  I'm pretty comfortable knowing what I can shoot on any given day, and if you end up facing me week in and out in tournaments, you might wish you'd done otherwise after a month or two!

  We'll probably end up seeing more sandbagging (keeping your average higher than you usually shoot to stay in a lower tier) in the future, as opposed to the current reverse-sandbagging trend (keeping your average lower than you can usually shoot).  It happens in real golf all the time, it'll happen here too.  It's really up to us to do the best job of self-governing we can do.

• Caven 63 Posts

  Sat, Mar 28 2009 6:33 AM

  What I don't understand is if there are those that are cheating by staying in a lower bracket to have an opportunity to win a tournament, and they are capable of shooting a 29 or 30 as a hack, they are just as capable of shooting the same as an amateur where the prizes are better.  I believe the only difference is a few more yards, all other aspects of the game are the same.  A dozen rounds would only be needed to make the adjustment.

  What WGT can do is push a player to the next bracket based on average or tournament scores.  What I proposed was a ranking that included both.

  What I thought was the major concern is the leaderboard from reading these forums as one of the complaints is reverse sandbagging.  This of course poses no threats in tournament competition, only to a leaderboard.  I'm sure WGT is working on improving the leaderboard calculation in order to show a truer level of skill.

  Adding more brackets is the logical way to go and I would love to see this, but will not totally reduce sandbagging, possibly increase it.  This must be coupled with a new averaging or ranking system.  Unless we all meet at my house or tibbets house in order to play a round  : )  some level of sandbagging will always be here to stay.

  Either way or anyway, I think I'll just go back to enjoying my retirement years by slapping around that little white ball both in reality and virtually.  Thanks WGT!!

• AvatarLee 1,644 Posts

  Sat, Mar 28 2009 9:16 AM

  Caven:

  What I don't understand is if there are those that are cheating by staying in a lower bracket to have an opportunity to win a tournament, and they are capable of shooting a 29 or 30 as a hack, they are just as capable of shooting the same as an amateur where the prizes are better. 

  For one thing there would be a lot less people that would be able to shoot those low numbers in the hack tier.... Amateur has a much larger number of players that can shoot as good or better than the 'sandbaggers' on a consistent basis.  That is why I think when new tiers are introduced the prize values of the lowest tier should be a LOT lower than the higher tiers...(maybe some free upgrades in the game.... that kind of thing)

   

• scornyn3 1 Posts

  Sat, Mar 28 2009 9:49 AM

   

  how do i start all over agian ,erase everything and start all over

• Caven 63 Posts

  Sat, Mar 28 2009 10:37 AM

  I'm sorry Lee, I still don't understand.

  I would think if any hack has the ability to shoot a 29 or 30, pretty much at will, they would be able to do that up a bracket in a short time.  That is where I think consistency lays, otherwise they could not "sandbag".

  I think you are right on the mark with a greater discrepancy in prizes between tiers, which I believe would be the natural progression once tiers are added, I hadn't thought of that.  Great point, I hope WGT is listening.