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WGT Rankings

Fri, Jun 14 2013 12:30 AM (31 replies)
  • gaoerfuqiu
    443 Posts
    Fri, Aug 21 2009 6:53 PM

    Hello everyone. I was wondering if anybody would like to help me in a task that I'm pretty sure will not work in the long run but which I think would be fun to try anyway just for the hell of it. I want to make a WGT rankings based on players' averages. I know that averages are not a good way to rate players, but it's very hard to make rankings based on tournament play and I wanted to have some way to organize how good players are here on WGT. Hopefully it would encourage people to play more rounds, although it could end up having more and more people quit. Anyway, if you'd like to help, just let me know and I'll get you working. Thank you.

    gaoerfuqiu

  • edchavez
    488 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 7:01 PM

    They have the rankings. They were made by TallAcePaul.!:) look for them, in the forums

  • tibbets
    1,043 Posts
    Sat, Aug 22 2009 7:18 PM

    Those rankings are based on less than 20% of the tournaments offered.  Paul just made up whatever he wanted, gave arbitrary values to all the free single round tournaments, and called them 'rankings'.  In reality, they represent nothing.  I have over $9,500 worth of winnings and a whole trophy case full of tournaments he decided 'don't qualify'.  Let's not forget, there's also all of the Closest to the Hole challenges as well to figure into it.  Everything that WGT puts out needs to be figured into whatever ranking system is devised.  Anything short of that is useless... if the aim is to create a true, comprehensive ranking system, that is.

  • gaoerfuqiu
    443 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 6:41 AM

    What I could do is make two rankings: a stroke play average and a closest-to-the-hole average or something. I'll see what I can do about that. Thanks for your input tibbets.

  • thunderbird
    381 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 9:05 AM

    I actually think that WGT should create two set of rankings based on stroke play and closest to the holes.  I don't mind Tall Ace Paul's rankings as it includes single play tourney's only.  If you know that is the case then that is perfectly fine.  Which he states straight up.  I actually appreciate all the work he does not to take away from Tibbets' point.  But any ratings other than winnings is good for me.  I personally can't play in any of the people vs. pro because of my golf professional status and I know there are quite a few out there on this site.  So something that rates stroke play open tournaments is very fair in my opinion.

  • tibbets
    1,043 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 9:30 AM

    Thunderbird, just to clear it up:  His rankings only include Free single play tournaments.   I didn't get all those earnings from free tournaments.  The largest prize given out by WGT to date was my trip to Kiawah, and that was a single play Paid tournament.  In Paul's eyes though, that doesn't count...because it wasn't free to enter.

    Uhh, it counted for over $5,000 in the eyes of the MDA, who sponsored the tournament, and WGT, who hosted it, but it counts for nothing in the rankings?  Get real.

    It's not my issue if some people can't compete in certain tournaments due to country restrictions or eligibility questions.  I didn't make the rules, none of us did.  We cannot, however, just pretend like all of those paid tournaments didn't happen.  They were, in fact, the most important tournaments to be played every month by those of us who qualified to do so.  The bragging-rights-only International Opens aren't exactly big motivations:  A $500 Amazon Card or new set of irons is.

    Here's another thing:  I can count on one hand the number of players who have shot a 27 in a 9-hole unlimited play tournament. I've done it myself many times. If they are so easy since you have unlimited chances, then why haven't more people done it? To say that unlimited play is not a legitimate test of skill is ludicrous.  You still have to play the whole round , you don't get to restart every shot if you don't like the result.  Once again, I have a trophy case full of wins in unlimited play tournaments.  Did I play them a lot?  Sometimes, yeah.  So did many other people.  They're unlimited, play as many times as you want/can.  The end result of your best score gets saved and matched up against others when the tournament is over.  Whoever shot the lowest wins.  Sounds pretty legitimate to me.  It does to WGT too, since the scores you record playing them count toward your average.  Your average counts towards your tier ranking and also happens in some cases to determine what clubs you can buy.  Yeah, they matter.

    So, let's stop pretending that ranking only single play Free tournaments at the expense at leaving out all the paid ones and unlimited play ones (a.k.a. The vast majority of the tournaments offered ) means anything.

  • Caven
    63 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 11:20 AM

    Amen Tibbets!

    As Yogi once pontificated:  "It's deja vu all over again"....and again and again.

    gaoerfuqiu, there have been many threads concerning this topic.  The last you may read here:

    http://www.wgt.com/forums/p/3739/20477.aspx#20477

    Your task is noble, but probably futile.  The best you can do is go through all the threads concerning ranking and try and figure what is the most comprehensive and fairest to the entire community from all the ideas contained in those threads, that is if you can filter through the junk.

    This is probably why WGT doesn't bother.  I believe there really is no conclusive means to rank in a on line virtual game, but there are better means than others which we have yet to discover.

  • gaoerfuqiu
    443 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 7:40 PM

    Caven, I have actually read through all of the threads concering TallAcePaul's rankings, and I have to say he's put in a lot of effort to create those rankings. It is a very tough task to find a ranking system that really works.

    Tibbets, the way WGT conducts its tournaments is not very professional. It's one round where everybody plays separately at any point throughout an entire week or even a whole month. I prefer the multiplay tournaments because I get second chances when I mess up. What would really fix all this is having tournaments where you have to play four rounds with a cut after two rounds. For instance, in the first round I shoot a 76 but then I shoot a 70 in the second round and I make the cut. Tounaments like that are multiplays because even if you shoot a bad first round you're not out of contention.

    Another issue that's brought up a lot is tiers. Not everybody in Master tier deserves to be there, and entering it is way too easy (been discussed thousands of times). Everybody is right when they say that people who are masters but average 69 don't really deserve to be playing tournaments against top-notch players like Tibbets. This can be discussed in a trillion different threads, but I won't go into huge detail with it here. Just know that this is another thing to worry about when trying to create an accurate ranking system.

    Dorkfeatures actually came up with a very good idea, having a minimum number of rounds played per week (as not to have egotistical players not post bad rounds and not move down the rankings), and to do so by looking at how they shoot in certain tournaments. What would be hard to decide is which ones to use. Single-play tournaments are the most perferable because they most resemble professional tournaments. But multiplay tournaments are also useful because they make up for the lack of multiple rounds in one tournament. One type of tournament that can't be used is entry-fee tournaments because a lot of players lack the resources to play.

    However you could make an argument that entry-fee tournaments should be allowed because they do bring out the best in all players and they're very accurate. But it's not fair that some people can help their averages by playing in these tournaments as well while others don't have that opportunity.

    Still another issue is that people can just play any ranked round and affect their averages. Theoretically, you could say to people who want to participate fully in the ranking system that they can only play practice rounds except for when they play in the tournaments. That's something, however, that should be debated by the players who do join the ranking system.

    All this, however, brings me back to my orginal logic for creating a basic system: just use the players' scoring averages. It's something that can be controlled a lot easier because the tournaments on WGT are not very professional. What I actually hope to do in the end is start a tour that will give out prizes and possibly even money and stuff that will have more professional tournaments and will bring out the best players on WGT. Keep the input coming guys! Thank you.

  • tibbets
    1,043 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 8:17 PM

    No arguments need be made for including any tournaments offered.  Like it or not, these are what we are provided with to play in every week/month.  We can debate the professionalism of what's offered until we're blue in the face.  The fact remains, we can only rank based on what were given.  If it's to be comprehensive, then by definition it has to include everything.  It doesn't matter if we agree with the formats.

    I also might add that Dorkfearures contention that multiplay tournaments are 'just for fun' is completely erroneous.  The last 2 tiered monthly tournaments were multiplay, and each paid off over 8000 credits.  A few months back there was a multiplay CTTH tournament with a prize of a 3 day trip to Wolf Creek.  In fact, there have been many such lucrative multiplay tournaments over the course of the games history.  I know, I've been here and played in every single one.  So this 'just for fun' contention is not based on anything factual.

    As I stated above, the issue that certain players can't compete in certain tournaments is not our concern.  That's for WGT and the countries involved to deal with.  Entry fee tournaments are part of what is offered by WGT to those who can participate.  Obviously, with an entry fee comes a larger prize, hence more motivation to do well.  Just because someone else can't compete in them does not invalidate the tournament. 

    Composing a comprehensive ranking system does not and should not be concerned with pandering to who can play in what tournament etc., only with accruing data of all tournaments provided to us. Anything short of that will be incomplete, inaccurate, and just a waste of time.  It's not up for you or anyone else to decide what is worth ranking and what is not.  I question anyone who would attempt to do so, and would leave out tournaments for any reason.

     

  • JTxpress
    411 Posts
    Sun, Aug 23 2009 9:39 PM

    Here's my two cents worth. I am one of those 68 - 69 average Masters. I got my "Masters Degree" buy shooting some very good rounds over the course of a week or so. When I got it I was elated. Yes, now I get moved to the blue tees. Yes, now I have to buy better clubs to reach some par fours in two again. Yes, now I'm a small fish in a big pond, BUT, I'M IN THE POND!!! Isn't that what we all play this game for anyway. I would like nothing better than to cross clubs with the likes of a Tibbets, AvatarLee, or a Nivlac. Yes, they are going to kick my butt out on the golf course,BUT, thats what it's all about. I want to play with the best. How many people out there would give their eye teeth for a chance to play a round of golf with Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson, Would you cry afterwards because they beat you so bad? I bet not. I think you would remember that day for a long time. Even tho I'm only a 68 average, I still go out and beat most pro tier players. But every one can have a bad day, and on that day it could be one of the top guns playing against you, and BAM, suddenly you beat them. THAT DAY I'D REMEMBER FOR YEARS.

    So in essence, I guess what I'm trying to say is Why pick on the higher average players? Why pick on the top guns? Be happy that you get to play at all. Be happy that you've made it this far. Be happy that you're even in the same pond with the best players online. JUST BE HAPPY, play you're best and let the chips fall where the may.

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