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Re: On Accuracy...

Sat, Nov 21 2009 12:58 PM (18 replies)
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  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 11:14 AM

     

    Hi all, 

    Just wanted to put in a few words about accuracy in this game.  Many may disagree with me here, but here it goes.  The accuracy of this game is too high... yes I said it... TOO HIGH!  Now hear me out before you go off on any rants and slanderous remarks...=)

    A lot of you are experiencing shots during your rounds that make you sit and scratch your head (to say the least)... "why did that shot end up 10 yards left, with a 7 mph left to right wind and I aimed 5 yards left" sound familiar?  A lot of people I know on here call this "deviation" or as I've read, "The Beast".  We believe it to be calculated into the shot before you even swing the club, and it's what I believe is being used to keep the scoring on this site (somewhat) realistic.  Lets face it, with the amount of swing meter precision that quite a few of the top players have, without "The Beast" the scores would be a LOT lower.  There was a time where the so called deviations were actually much more predictable than they are now, it's gotten better, but I am still recognizing patterns that can be found.  (And no I have not taken notes and mapped them out).   

    So here is what I think needs to be changed:

    1.  Add more variable winds.  And by this I mean, change the wind during the hole, or even during the shot, maybe by adding gusts of wind, but please display the information like a weather report (7mph NNE, gusts to 12mph)  This would add variance to the outcomes of shots and displaying the "gusts to" would give the player some rational as to why the shot behaved the way it did.

    2.  Make the wind effect more consistent.  Please reduce the "deviation" factor, or at least make it work in concert with the wind. (like a gust!) 

    3.  Add lie slope into shot calculations.  If you are on an uphill slope, the shot should be higher and shorter, sidehill... should move away from the face of the hill, etc.  But this info would need to be displayed also.  I suggest a range be displayed much like the % buried value (10-20% sidehill).  This would probably also require the stance control option to be brought back so you could move the ball back in your stance if you are on an uphill lie. (or is that forward.... I can never remember)

    4.  Bring the stance control option back.  Wait... did I already say that?  Well it needs to be back.  Anything that could increase the choices a player has for a shot will reduce the average accuracy of the outcomes.

    5.  Bring in the Draw/Fade option.  I know we've all been waiting and wondering when this option will be useable, guess we'll have to see what the next set of clubs brings us.

    *edit* 6. Change hole locations.  Pretty self-explanatory.... 

    I think that's it, I've probably missed some things because I didn't write them down (I'm bad for that)  But in a nutshell, the deviations have to go and be replaced with real world variations that will make us think about the shot.  Give us the good and bad choices to make and get rid of the "pre-determined" bad shot!

    Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

    See you out there.

    Lee

     

  • Kaslo
    428 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 12:09 PM

    Moving the flags around the green would help also.

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 12:15 PM

    You're absolutely right!  (one of the ones I forgot to write down =D )

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 3:09 PM

    I hope WGT is listening to this.  Forgive the rambling at the end and kudos to anyone who actually makes it there. :D

    The pre-determined bad shot is the single most thing that is ruining this game in my view.  No matter how good the graphics are, no matter how many courses, tournaments or modes of you play you have, if I'm still missing 2.7 foot flat putts because of this nonsense (which I did yesterday, Jarid was there), then everything else you do is for naught.

    The simple fact of the matter is, the better you are, the more that pure, unadulterated bad luck will be involved in your score.  Case in point is tibbets.  He's not winning nearly as many tournaments as before and for some, this is a probably viewed as a relief.  For me however, this just serves to drive home the fact that deviations of this magnitude are ruining the game for all of us.  Did tibbets suddenly forget how to play golf?  Of course not.   So what really happened?  Thanks to deviations he's being penalized for his perfect shots.  I feel he is no longer being accurately represented as the best player on the game which he clearly is.  So what's the ultimate deciding factor between his and my tournament finishes right now?  A little skill for sure, but it's predominantly the game itself.  In a way, I'm getting the upper hand on him because he's being knocked down by the large deviation rounds as well.  That's not an accurate representation of his skill compared to mine,  so I'm technically earning an advantage by doing nothing.  This game was much better when tibbets was the man to beat and the rest of us had to go out there and beat him.  Deviations are the reason it's not like that anymore and that's wrong on every level when you consider we're paying to enter some of these tournaments.  Chances are, when I do beat him, it was because I got lucky and he didn't or I didn't lucky and he got extremely unlucky.  No where in there can I pound my chest and say, "Woo I beat tibbets because I was more skillful this time", because really I didn't.  I get no sense of accomplishment at all and end up taking virtually nothing away from these results because deep down I know the real reason why I scored better.  It was either pure luck or the absence of bad luck.

    But it's ok because deviations affect everyone equally, right?

    Not even close.  Not everyone gets the same deviations at the same time.  Not everyone gets the same amount of deviations from round to round and not everyone gets the severity of deviations.  In essence, it's completely random and we're all left at it's mercy.  No amount of skill (aside from prognostication) will teach you how to predict a deviation before it comes.  Instead of fixing what's wrong, WGT has introduced Unlimited Play tournaments.  It seems clear they did this to appease the players like tibbets, because eventually he'll hit the score he should when he hits a round that has non-critical deviations.  This is absolutely the wrong way to go about it because it rewards him for having the most time to play, not for being the best..  tibbets IS the best player on here by a clear margin.  If he's not leading or at least competing to win in the majority of one-off tournaments then something is wrong with the system. It now begs the question of, "why isn't the clear cut best & most consistent player winning the majority of one-offs?"  The sad answer to which is random chance deviations.

    So what does this do for the game?

    Well, we're not playing golf here anymore.  At least, not any of us on or near the Top 10 list.  We've basically mastered the golf part already.  The game is now a glorified pattern hunt.  We spend the majority of our time looking for patterns in deviations that will help to give us back the edge we deserve (by practicing and playing more than most) in the first place.  We spend the majority of our time grinding for scores, hoping to run across that one round where deviations happen at non-critical times (not on 6 foot putts).  You enter single play tournaments thinking to yourself "I hope this isn't a bad set of deviations" instead of thinking "I hope to play well this time."  It's ripping the fun right out of the game for a lot of us, especially  the ones who have supported this game and it's creators from Day 1.

    You want realistic scoring averages?  No chance in hell.  Not until what is happening to us on the course is actually realistic and plausible.  You cannot in any way justify an 8yd deviation on a perfectly struck shot. You just can't.  2 or 3 yards is believable,  8 yards is not.  You cannot justify deviations on the greens whatsoever.  On real greens you judge the line, you measure the speed and you hit the putt with a good stroke.  All of those elements are represented in the game, but no, in comes a random fourth element that says , "let's misdirect this putt 15 degrees right instead."  No way.

    For me personally, I sure as hell do not have nearly as much fun on this site that I once did and this is exactly why.  I don't play as much as I used to because of it.  Deviations were present in the past, as Avatar mentioned, but they were playable to the point where you knew where the ball was going to go if you hit it straight.  While that offered a more realistic solution than the current system does, neither is the right way to represent this as golf.

    So how do they fix this mess?

    Easy. Get rid of deviations,  to which the usual response is "but we don't want scores in the 40's".  You won't if you also change the swing meter.  As Avatar said, it's way too forgiving.  If you remove deviations then you actually have a reason to decrease forgiveness and penalize us for missing.  If you can find that sweet spot between the two then the scores should remain about the same.  Listen to me when I tell you your swing speed philosophy is backwards and is part of the overall problem.  There currently is no incentive to upgrade at all and the adage "you get what you pay for" is entirely misapplied here.  Most folks are content to stick it out with the Starters because they know that upgrading past Tour Starters will only make it harder for them to score.  That's not the way it should work and definitely won't sell your clubs.  In reality it shouldn't make it harder or easier, it should just make it different.  That difference represented by a slower meter and smaller forgiveness zone.  You might get that 1-2 shot improvement in a club upgrade and that's entirely expected and realistic.

    The introductory club set should have the fastest meter coupled with the largest forgiveness zone.  This parallel's real life knock off clubs to a T.  After all, forgiveness was the main reason for the invention of the cavity back iron.  This will make people want to get rid of starters and upgrade their clubs ASAP.  People will feel that their money was well spent, instead of feeling as if they were hosed.  The farther up the line you go, the swing meters should continue to slow down making it easier to hit it perfect.  Doesn't that make the game easier?  No, not if you continue to decrease forgiveness too so that missing by the slightest margin on the slowest meters puts you offline by a few yards, much like real forged irons would.

    Deviations are the sole reason for my sour attitude.  I'm tired of missing 6 footers because the game has determined it to be so.  If I ever miss a 6 footer, it should be ONLY because I misread the green or mishit the putt and nothing else.  Period.

    To sum it all up, I'm pretty unhappy with the collective game as it stands right now and I'm calling shenanigans on this nonsense WGT.  It has to stop, or eventually we're all just going to get fed up with it and leave.  There are other options.

    In the meantime, while having discussed this with some other players around here, I will cross my fingers hoping that some of this gets through and that the advent of the Pro Tier and beyond will begin to offer real solutions to these nagging issues that are currently dragging this game through the mud.

    I've played real golf for 19 years and I've played every single video golf game under the sun.  I've always had a stupid nerdling dream to develop or help develop a golf game myself so I really believe I know what needs to go into one to make it entirely successful on all levels.  I see critical errors being made and it worries me because this game has the chance to absolutely be THE online golf game.  I'm not trying to sound cocky, but I really think I can help you fix these problems, achieve that #1 goal and sell a whole hell of a lot of golf clubs along the way.

    Here's an analogy for you to ponder.  Imagine a bridge that is halfway built.  It's a good bridge and a lot of folks clearly see it's potential of use.  The only problem is the structural supports on the bridge are beginning to stress because the foundation was not laid properly.  Instead of addressing that issue and possibly falling behind schedule, the foreman orders the work to continue so the bridge is completed and opens on time.  For a while, everything is fine, because there's not quite enough stress in the structural supports.  But one day, that bridge will come down and a lot of people will get hurt because it was more important to meet the deadline than it was to make sure the foundation was properly in place.  Think about that.

    Avatar: 

    I think once we get out of beta we're going to see most, if not all of that stuff implemented.  I'm not sure if I want to see the end of Beta in the current stage though.  Sorry, I kinda hijacked your thread, so I had to stay on topic with an answer for ya. :D

  • ncviz
    527 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 5:03 PM

    Very nice suggestions Lee and Nivlac, much better than my short rant on the subject. I will like to add some thoughts on the matter.

    This thing about Tibbets not winning as much, so then the game must be broken I wouldn't particular agree with. First I'm not sure Tibbets is winning any less. I don't have the data in front of me to support that, but he seems like he has been on top of the leaderboard as much as any time in the past. Sure he has gotten beat here or there, but that happened in the past too.

    The biggest thing for me is changes. I felt like I was getting pretty good, before this last change, then had to go back and relearn alot of the shots. While I understand this is still in Beta and it's the nature of the beast right now, changing things up back and forth clearly supports a player that invest alot of time, not particular money in the site. Certainly WGT wants people to come and stay alot, but people that play alot doesn't always equate to them spending money. Spending time here should be rewarded. But someone say spending 10 hours a week here vs someone spending 40, given the same skill level, should be comparable players. A good source of players can and do come from working individuals that can't spend a ton of time here, but if given a fair opportunity to compete for prizes will bring in alot of money. Also that same group would be the ideal audition for advertising revenue.

    Lastly, I'm not sure you want to make the game harder or more difficult to play. People get carried away sometimes I think with the awesome graphics and then say the should be more realistic. Well I'm a very avid golfer in real life, I can tell you if this game was ultra realistic hardly anyone would want to play. Even the pros have their ups and downs. Real golf is way more frustrating than WGT golf, even in its current form. I would hate if it ever turned out like that. This is a computer game, its very nature means it will and always needs to be easier than the real thing or else noone will want to play.

    Again thanks Lee and Niv you guys summarized alot of things well. This is just my opinion guys, so if you don't like it go blow it out.... j/k ;). Be good...

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 5:29 PM

    ncviz:
    so if you don't like it go blow it out.... j/k ;)

    rofl :D

    I don't wish to make the game any harder or easier than it is.  A lot of low scores have to do with the fact that we're playing from the middle tees and I realize that.  I don't even play middle tees anymore on the real course unless there are only 3 markers and I'm not even that good.  I'm always on the Men's tees myself, and once in a while I'll take on the tips on some of the easier courses but I digress.

    I just feel that there would be no need to have a system for artificially capping the scoring to keep it realistic if the game was playing properly in the first place.  The fact that this system even exists at all suggests the game is too easy.  If the difficulty was correct, there would be no need for this.  This brings me back to my point about critical errors being made, even on the simple, less important stuff.  Conventional wisdom and expectations tend to fall flat on their face here.  Can anyone explain why missing early here causes a hook when any golfer knows that missing early will most likely cause a slice?  Why is uphill blue and not red?  Simple stuff, and they're not getting it right.  Granted, those last two things don't affect the game play, but it still makes you wonder what else they may have gotten wrong.

    I want to see the game tweaked to where we play our damnedest, shots go more or less where they should and we still shoot a 64.  That place is video golf perfection, we just have to tweak a few things here and there to find it.  It's in there somewhere.

    There are a lot of days (like today) where I get more enjoyment out of discussions with the community than from the game that brought me here in the first place. :-/

    Shenanigans has been called.  Ball's in their court, so to speak.  I just need to find my broom.  (I hope at least one person gets that reference :D)

  • Noodon
    56 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 5:34 PM

    I would say I agree for the most part with all of you, I guess the comparison to real golf really has to leave the equation once and for all. This game is nothing like real golf and will never be....why....because your sitting on your a** and not outside enjoying the real game. For the rest of the comments, I still think when they get to the point where they are moving tee distances and pin placements, its just gonna be a battle against the wind. The shot shaping has got to be put in so you can reach some of the existing pin placements in a somwhat normal manner. You tend to hit unrealistic shots to get to some of the pins. I guess I kind of turn on and off to the game now, play about 1/8 of the time I spent when it first came out, I find it quite boring now, same hole, same pin, etc..etc...Good reads in the threads of this post.

  • drivnchaos
    286 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 7:28 PM

    If you want to blast me go ahead. I still feel the home page says what this game is. " The most realistic "  I've been watching the pros this year more than ever, thanks to this site I might add, and can't help but feel WGT is right on the mark with their objective. If the deviation was not in place, all we would have here is another TW game, where constant birdie and eagle shots would rule. If Tibbets is winning less ,then that brings the realism into total effect.  Time after time I've watched the great, and yes I mean, "THE GREAT TIGER", blast it into the weeds, woods,rough, and sand. Beat his club head into the ground, grimace, cuss, and regret, all the while knowing he can play better than he is !  I'm sure, at times, he wishes all he had to do was click a line perfectly to make his shot.  The other day Tiger hit his driver and the commentators couldn't believe it. " He should have used his 3 Wood ! " This is where the realism comes into play for me. Remember  "Realism !" 

    Without deviation there would be no hope for the average player to try for a top spot. As of now my average is 62.43 and I'm hoping I make the pro tier. Not because I think I can beat the mighty Tibbets or Avatarlee, but because at least it gives me the hope to compete in the same bracket. Maybe one day I'll have that round, when they are having an off day, and I'll claim the top prize.

    I know you're all saying that this is a computer game and should not be so " hit or miss "

    If it wasn't, would it not be just another  "computer game"

    I know I haven't been here since the beginning, but found this site by searching " Realistic Golf "

    Just my opinion

    Mike

  • nivlac
    2,188 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 8:14 PM

    No one's gonna blast you Mike, you're fully entitled to your opinion as everyone else is. :)  That's one of the endearing features of this place.  Conversations can take place, people can disagree and nobody hates anybody after it.  You don't see that on a lot on public forums.

    I do want to point out that there is one major difference between the example you cited and what I've mentioned.  When Tiger ends up in the rough or misses a green, it's his fault.  As I mentioned before, when I miss a green here or a 2.7 foot putt, it's very likely that it was not my fault.  This serves to penalize the players who hit the impact line with the most consistency. If you're not hitting the line regularly, you will actually correct some of your deviations accidentally.  However, if you are hitting the line consistently you are never accidentally correcting a deviation.  Instead you are always a victim of it.  If you consider that the overall goal here is to hit the impact line, I find that off-putting. 

    There's money involved here. I don't particularly enjoy the fact that my results are being artificially tampered with.  You can't tout "realism" while this is happening.   It doesn't make it alright just because it serves to help some folks either.  The playing field should be as level possible, through and through.  If that means I lose to tibbets more often, then so be it because that's the way it should be.  That is the responsibility I accept by entering myself into his competitive tier.  I have an incentive to improve at that point.  For me, that's as real as it gets.

    I can't buy in to the thing about  the average player not trying for a top spot.  I was an average player once.  My first round was either a 56 or 58. I can't remember now.  I got to where I am today by playing, practicing, learning the game and taking a few tips from my fellow competitors.  If I can do it on a computer that doesn't even meet minimum requirements, then I believe anyone can be up to the task if they really gave it a go.

  • AvatarLee
    1,644 Posts
    Fri, May 15 2009 10:16 PM

    Wow... look what I started =D

    Hey Niv, no problem about hijacking the thread, I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

    I'd just like to add to everyone reading this, and I know that I may be preaching to the choir, but..... stick around, I think great things are to come.  They may be a little slow getting here, but it's coming.  I really think that if they can manage to take the realism to the next level, and by this I mean giving us the rope to hang ourselves with instead of deciding when we should be hung based on a random pattern, it will level out the playing field a lot more.  Some may say "What are you talking about?!?  It just means Tibbets and the select few will win all the tournaments!!".  That may be, until they start changing up the course setups and releasing more courses.  I think that when there are 4 or 5 different courses to choose from, you'll find a lot wider range of people winning top spots.  I liken the current winning trend of the select few to Tiger and Torrey Pines... It's essentially his home course, he's played it since he was 10!  Has won 6 Buick Inv. and The US Open there, and probably knows it better than anyone on earth.  Period.  Likewise here, there are people on here (myself obviously included) that have the luxury of being able to spend a lot of time figuring out the course, memorizing the greens, knowing exactly what a shot should and will do.  That is why we are winning.  So to all those out there that think they don't have a chance in hell of winning anything, be patient and PRACTICE, because there will come a time where we won't have the luxury of time to be able to know a course like Tiger knows Torrey.

    Adding a little ray of hope... I hope =)

    Lee

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