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Could we please try some tournaments without RTA

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Fri, Jul 22 2022 9:20 AM (7 replies)
  • DodgyPutter
    4,380 Posts
    Thu, Jul 21 2022 2:30 PM

    This post primarily relates to what el3n1 and JDGHOST were discussing in the "Cheat Programmes" thread.  It seems I'm often accused of drifting off subject and writing too long posts so fair warning I'm certainly going to do the latter and off subject is possible. Hence a new thread, easily avoided, with a new title.

    The game that routinely has rules on RTA is poker there's a good description of what it is and how they deal with it in this article.

    Real-Time Assistance (RTA) is a topic that is becoming increasingly more discussed within the poker community, and PokerNews is here to give you a brief explainer on what the term means, how it works, and how players are supposedly using it at the highest levels of poker to cheat their way to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.

    What Is Real-Time Assistance (RTA)?

    In short, anything that assists a poker player in their decision making while a cash game or tournament is in progress is considered to be providing Real-Time Assistance. In general, there are two types of RTA:

    • Automated: a program will scrape the cards, chip counts and bet sizings from the poker client and run the simulation automatically.
    • Manual input: players will have to input the above information themselves into the program.

    Poker operators are becoming increasingly more adept at detecting RTA clients running on the same computer or laptop as the poker client. For that reason, cheaters may use a computer separate from the one they are playing on to use the RTA program or software.

    Whether automatic or manually inputted, using RTA in this way is cheating.

    How does Real-Time Assistance (RTA) Work?

    At the highest end, complex RTA systems help the user play a Game Theory Optimal (GTO) strategy that is mathematically perfect. Solvers, for example, let the user know exactly how much they should bet in a specific scenario, or if they should bet at all. Playing with this helps a player gain an edge over their opponents. Even a very small edge in the higher stakes games can be worth tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a year.

    "Playing GTO" is not a new concept in the poker community or indeed the poker industry. Many of the top players use this concept at the tables, but they've learned how to do this over hundreds of hours of studying away from the table.

    It isn't only complex GTO solvers that provide RTA to players. Even having a push/fold chart to hand or a starting hand chart based on stack sizes prior action of players is considered RTA and, therefore, against the terms and conditions, at least on the GG Network.

    Can You Get Banned for Real-Time Assistance?

    Also in 2020, GGPoker issued bans to 40 accounts for RTA usage. Thirteen of those accounts had $1,175,305 confiscated. An additional 40 account were issued final warnings.

    The decision to ban and confiscate funds came after the online poker operator claimed to have "upgraded detection methods" relating to RTA usage. Although no names of banned players were released, there were suggestions at the time in various social media posts that some of the game's elite players, many of whom adopt a GTO strategy, are among them.

    The usual cry of "It would be unenforceable" seems to me a pathetic reason for not making rules.  If a rule is worth making it's worth making and if someone then breaks it that person has cheated, if they don't get caught then they've got away with cheating, that time.

    It is widely suggested that using a spreadsheet is the same as counting in your head, of course that's nonsense.  Doing fairly complicated arithmetic in your head will occasionally (or frequently for some of us) lead to mistakes, that's not likely with a computer doing the calculating.  Calculating a 212yd approach that's 19ft uphill in a 10.30 wind at 26-28mph.  Do people really think doing that mentally and using a spreadsheet are comparable, will the number of mistakes made be the same with each method?

    Spreadsheets added to copious notes gathered and pooled make a round little more than  research with a little bit of a hit (or deliberately just miss) the ding contest.  Then we throw in unlimited attempts so those with time will certainly at some point get optimum wind conditions to apply the numbers and of course lack of a decent shot clock (or any shot clock) to give time to consult notes, spreadsheets and even others online watching.  

    Real time assistance in abundance. 

    I think that having a tournament or two where we play this as a game, not a reverse engineering project, would be good.  If I was playing a tournament that was meant to be without RTA and I finished behind some that cheated then fine, that's up to them.

    One last fallacy peddled by those who's interest it's in to do so, most play with spreadsheets and there would be a catastrophic collapse in numbers playing, and income for wgt, if spreadsheets weren't allowed.  I think that's only true in the small group of players that engage in the forums and the more prominent country clubs, when I've asked during coin games the vast majority said they didn't use spreadsheets. 

    Anyway the request is for just one or two tournaments to be formed with rules on RTA, at least for now. It would also be good to bring in 30sec clocks to all important tournaments to cut down a little bit on the coaching.

     

     

  • Yiannis1970
    2,834 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 3:36 AM

    Nice post DP.

     

    First edition of E-Tour in Denmark (2019)

     

    Rulebook for European eTour
    May 23rd and 24th of 2019

     

    USE OF THIRD-PARTY APPLICATIONS
    Use of third-party applications will n ot be allowed (including but not limited to
    physical and virtual rulers, auto hot key apps, physical and virtual calculators), except
    for;
    - Paper notes
    - Clean sheets of paper and pen

     

    The reason behind this rule is that WGT Golf should be played as it is designed to; a raw skill-based game that does not require aids to master.

     

     

    Three days after....

     

     

    Rulebook and Information V2
    European eTour at Made In Denmark 2019

     

    Rulebook for European eTour V2
    May 23rd and 24th of 2019

     

     

    USE OF THIRD-PARTY APPLICATIONS
    Use of third-party applications will n ot be allowed. The computer is reserved for game
    client and nothing else (including but not limited to spreadsheets, Excel, virtual rulers
    and calculators, auto hot key apps). Exceptions:
    - Paper notes (unlimited, although we ask for a reasonable amount); both
    printouts and handwritten documents
    - You can have whatever you like on these, except for information that is
    violating rules of this Rulebook (see below)
    - Clean sheets of paper
    - Pen
    - Physical calculator

     

    The reason for this is to create an even playing field for all competitors.

     

     

    PS

     

    Till a year back, i was playing like the first version dictates. Now, i use a basic excel sheet (distance, elevation, wind), to give my self a ''fair'' chance playing on an ''even'' field, as the version II dictates. Why the version I has become version II and how from:

    The reason behind this rule is that WGT Golf should be played as it is designed to; a raw skill-based game that does not require aids to master.

     

    have gone to

     

    The reason for this is to create an even playing field for all competitors.

     

    i let everyone decide what to believe.

     


  • POPPYPEUX
    827 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 4:17 AM

    I started playing in 2013 on good old flash.

    In all those years, I have never mapped my clubs.

    I still use only my short notes in WGT's onscreen notebook & a calculator to multiply my putt distance by a percentage cos my brain doesn't work as I would like it to lol.

    Most of my shots are still hit & hope but a lot of the time it works.

    This is maybe why I can hit a 56 one day & the next a 64 ffs.

    Some days I think to myself, it would be nice to always stay close to the big boys.

    But I won't change though......that's part of life......ups & downs.

    We all have a reason to play this annoying game, I started playing to have fun & meet new friends.....at the moment that philosophy is just working.

    ;)

  • Yiannis1970
    2,834 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 7:05 AM

    Game, set and match Poppy!!!

  • PureGro1
    1,305 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 7:46 AM


    So many people play games for so many reasons, I think- Real life golfers play this game different than a gamer does and its the same for poker honestly. 

    Where I get cloudy at is this- Some people are insanely good with numbers, Ive seen mechanics/carpenters do math in their heads and others who NEED a calculator or book next to them. I cant say one is better than the other because they both come up with same end result. 

    Should someone that can perform eccentric equations in their head be penalized, or should someone who cant do that be penalized? Taking the calculator or spreadsheet away from the guy who just has bad memory or math skills seems like we would be saying to them - You cant compete with that guy because your too slow or lack the ability to do complex math in your head and im not sure that is fair in a gaming environment.

    Cheating to me- Is a BOT or Program that is actually playing- ensuring dings and always hitting correct spot on meter- etc..

    IMO if someone needs spread sheets, calculators, 90sec whatever- that is to me just the variety of human conditions and yes the best may use them as well and be better than most players.

  • JMH1
    249 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 8:02 AM

    From the PGA Rules:

    "A player will be allowed a maximum of 40 seconds to complete his/her stroke. NOTE: An additional 10 seconds will be allowed for a) the first to play from the teeing ground on a par 3 hole; b) the first to play a second stroke on a par 4 or par 5 hole; c) the first to play a third stroke on a par 5 hole; or d) the first to play on or around the putting green. "

    It seems incongruous that WGT permits unlimited time in many competitions.

    What would happen if WGT put a 45 or 60 second time limit on for their events?

    My prediction:
    *Some of those who are taking unlimited time and using RTA (and winning a significant amount of credits) would cease playing entirely; some would adapt and continue to play, but the net would probably be a decrease in the number of rounds played by the RTA crowd.
    *Some of us who have largely or entirely ceased playing RG's in particular, would begin playing these again. Since RG's are demand-driven events (closing when 50 players enter and starting a new one automatically) and WGT skims 20% of the credits off the top, I would suspect that putting a clock on could actually increase WGT's revenues.
    *Time to play would be shortened in both RG's and the WGT time-limited tourneys. Faster rounds means that we burn through balls more quickly, which should be a slight incremental revenue boost for WGT.

    Given the number of different events that WGT hosts, it seems as if they could try setting up some RG's with time limits as a test, just to see what happens.

    I watch the e-events sometimes, and it certainly seems as if the top players only occasionally use a lot of time for shots, mostly on tricky putts. And, given that the events are streamed, it is evident that they do not use any on-screen RTA's other than the WGT note application.

    As a devout capitalist, I understand that WGT is profit-driven, so I have avoided any discussion of "fairness" here. I am surprised that WGT does not experiment with this concept since it directly involves player activity revenues. 

    Jack

  • POPPYPEUX
    827 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 8:09 AM

    Nice post Jack

    ;)

  • PureGro1
    1,305 Posts
    Fri, Jul 22 2022 9:20 AM

    JMH1:

    From the PGA Rules:

    "A player will be allowed a maximum of 40 seconds to complete his/her stroke. NOTE: An additional 10 seconds will be allowed for a) the first to play from the teeing ground on a par 3 hole; b) the first to play a second stroke on a par 4 or par 5 hole; c) the first to play a third stroke on a par 5 hole; or d) the first to play on or around the putting green. "

    It seems incongruous that WGT permits unlimited time in many competitions.

    What would happen if WGT put a 45 or 60 second time limit on for their events?

    Honestly, It almost seems more incongruous to compare a real life sporting event with e-sports in general and this golf simulation in particular...to me. 

    Just speaking in generalities here but at almost any PRO sports event, you have a fairly small % of our population that can compete at those levels...

    When here were just talking about time used and use of notes and/or spreadsheets IMO this is what makes e-sports different and really stands out in a game such as WGT- a 95yo person can compete with a 25yo and have a legit shot at winning, or a person with disabilities can play these games at a high level based on exp and possibly a copious amount of notes and maybe even a spreadsheet .

    It may take them 90sec for whatever reason- I can not for the life of me understand why anyone wants to rush someone to play faster realizing that someone who would "Cheat" is going to figure out how to cheat in 30/45/60 seconds but it will for sure make it harder on people who do not cheat, especially those that just move slower than others.

    At the end of the day it seems all we would find out is that faster but not as good players can sometimes beat slower but better players on a short timer...

    Just for the record, I am a fast player and spread sheets much to my wife's dislike give me a headache to look at...lol

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