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Ban PCP use among WGT programmers

• Yiannis1970 3,269 Posts

  Tue, Feb 22 2022 6:17 AM

  I tried to explain what is happening with the apex using different amount of spins (the first 15' minutes) on this video below. The same principal goes for heavy tailwinds as well (especially those at 12 o' clock). Perhaps you can find it useful.

   

   

   

• Robbo81303 410 Posts

  Wed, Jun 22 2022 9:36 AM

  Yiannis1970:

  I tried to explain what is happening with the apex using different amount of spins (the first 15' minutes) on this video below. The same principal goes for heavy tailwinds as well (especially those at 12 o' clock). Perhaps you can find it useful.

  Well, alas, I can't watch your video.

  I guess why I still don't fully understand all this is because, until recently, i've played this game with what would be considered 'cheap' balls.  A WGT b-xd ball is wonderfully linear in its response to wind on virtually all shots save for short punches. Heck, ALL the WGT-branded balls act reasonably predictably in most wind conditions.  It's only the 'better' balls I have issues with.  Yes, the higher arc will get knocked down more but that hardly explains the shorter distances under heavy tailwinds.

  Even knocked down, the better ball will still have a much higher arc than a b-xd and the winds are (or, at least, should be) more forceful at higher altitudes.  Moreover, the better ball is significantly lighter in weight than a b-xd, which should mean the wind would carry the better ball farther.  And yet, no.

  If someone could explain why simple physics doesn't apply in this circumstance, I'd love to know why.  Thank you.

• SamSpayed 4,895 Posts

  Thu, Jun 23 2022 12:07 PM

  Robbo81303:

  If someone could explain why simple physics doesn't apply in this circumstance, I'd love to know why.  Thank you.

  Okay... I'll try to explain the physics to the best of my understanding.

  Robbo81303:

  It's only the 'better' balls I have issues with.  Yes, the higher arc will get knocked down more but that hardly explains the shorter distances under heavy tailwinds.

  The apex (or higher arc, as you put it) is going to depend largely on what spin you put on the ball.  You will get maximum apex with full backspin, regardless of whether the wind is a headwind or tailwind.  With a headwind, the apex will be higher due to "ballooning effect".  With a tailwind, the apex will be lower, so it will appear that the ball will be "knocked down" more - and, consequently, will carry a shorter distance.

  Robbo81303:

  Even knocked down, the better ball will still have a much higher arc than a b-xd and the winds are (or, at least, should be) more forceful at higher altitudes.

  The better ball will have more spin than the B-XD.  That's the reason for its higher arc.  

  I believe that the winds may have more of an impact at higher altitudes (apexes) on certain holes and certain courses.  On an open course (like St. Andrews or RSG), there's probably not much (if any) difference.  On a course with lots of trees (like Olympic or Congressional), where the trees can act as a wind screen, you may see more wind effect on your ball when it's above the tree line and less when it's below.  But I don't know if WGT has programmed it to be that sophisticated.

  Robbo81303:

  Moreover, the better ball is significantly lighter in weight than a b-xd, which should mean the wind would carry the better ball farther.  And yet, no.

  All balls in WGT are the same weight.  No difference between a B-XD and a better ball.

  That's my understanding of the physics, somewhat simplified.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Thu, Jun 23 2022 12:35 PM

  SamSpayed:

  I believe that the winds may have more of an impact at higher altitudes (apexes) on certain holes and certain courses.  On an open course (like St. Andrews or RSG), there's probably not much (if any) difference. 

  If a person is playing a math based game -which tends to happen - what I suspect happens for some people - regarding wind effect is that when there is elevation changes - they may use the "adjusted yardage" for their distance calculation as well as for the same wind aim calculation - when the wind aim distance did not really change.

  For example 180y shot uphill 30 feet might become an adjusted distance calc of 190Y but the shot is still a 180y effective wind aim shot not 190y- and I believe people are plugging in the adjusted distance for the wind aim as well - and as a result - we try to explain things like the trees and such - as being a factor in the wind aim playing less than expected.  but I doubt WGT went to that level of detail to measure wind effect on each hole for trees and canyons - but I can't say for sure.  

  I am not saying they may not be a factor - but I would consider making this type of adjustment first.

  Now - go to Wolf Creek where people say the wind aim is so far more than they would think -- on those severe downhill shots - if they are using the adjusted distance calc as well - they are making a similar mistake imho.  if anything you need to use the full distance and maybe 10% more for heavier wind conditions for a drift effect.

  I can't say this is always true - but it is something I have worked with and adjusted for over time - and it seems to help.  I still make mistakes and may be doing something else wrong - at times - but I have also found more success on average using this approach.

  ---

  I actually feel with apparel the less expensive balls are easier and more predictable to play most of the time-  for one - because apparel allows you to do so - but most people think they have to use the high end balls.

  The problem or nuance of the higher end balls can require more experience or ball mapping to fully understand how the wind will effect a shot with varying degrees of spin.  And that can take time and some lost balls to figure out if you don't understand your club/ ball combo very well.  

• ct690911 7,195 Posts

  Thu, Jun 23 2022 3:02 PM

  Something has to account for the better players being able to consistently adjust for wind conditions. Robbo is a very good player. Top tier players like FMags and CO. routinely throw darts at the pins. The wind is almost irrelevant it seems. I would bet that, even using crap balls, they would still shoot lights out.

  Why is it the "physics" doesn't seem to effect their shots like with us mere mortals?

• SamSpayed 4,895 Posts

  Thu, Jun 23 2022 4:24 PM

  el3n1:

  what I suspect happens for some people - regarding wind effect is that when there is elevation changes - they may use the "adjusted yardage" for their distance calculation as well as for the same wind aim calculation - when the wind aim distance did not really change.

  I agree, Ed, that that is a very likely scenario. 

  The bottom line is: the longer your ball is in the air, the more it will be affected by the winds.  When hitting to an elevated green, your ball will be in the air for slightly less time, so the wind effect will be slightly less as well.  Likewise, when hitting a severe downhill shot (as in your WC example), your ball will be in the air for more time, so the wind effect will be more.

• pmm711 5,515 Posts

  Fri, Jun 24 2022 1:00 AM

  ct690911:

  Why is it the "physics" doesn't seem to effect their shots like with us mere mortals?

  +1