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Questions - Off Ding Putt; Driver Backspin

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Thu, Oct 21 2021 7:15 AM (8 replies)
  • Cicero733
    1,279 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 2:03 PM

    Been playing slightly over 3 yrs now and I still have questions about two game approaches that I cannot wrap my head around.

    Off Ding Putting - I do OK with a conventional ding putting style, but I have always wanted to try off ding putting or at least understand the mechanics of it. Yet whenever I do the results are abysmal. So, how do I approach this - a 12’ putt, level, no elevation, about 1/3 grid left to right break. No problem with the power needed, but where do I aim? Do I leave the aimer in the hole or do I move it to accommodate the break? And how much off ding do I hit? And I assume I am hitting into the break?

    Driver Backspin into Headwinds - This one I just don’t understand. On the tee with a 16 - 18 mph headwind. Any number of ways I can hit the shot and logic seems to suggest using top spin to keep the ball below the wind and maximize roll out on landing. Yet I have seen other players, myself included, use a couple of ticks of backspin, which to me should put the ball up into the wind creating increased vertical height and subtracting horizontal distance. But that’s not the case. The slight amount of backspin causes the ball to go further, usually 6 - 10 yds, than the ball hit with topspin. What is the physical science behind this one? 

  • NrEighteen
    938 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 2:56 PM

    Cicero733:

    Driver Backspin into Headwinds - This one I just don’t understand. On the tee with a 16 - 18 mph headwind. Any number of ways I can hit the shot and logic seems to suggest using top spin to keep the ball below the wind and maximize roll out on landing. Yet I have seen other players, myself included, use a couple of ticks of backspin, which to me should put the ball up into the wind creating increased vertical height and subtracting horizontal distance. But that’s not the case. The slight amount of backspin causes the ball to go further, usually 6 - 10 yds, than the ball hit with topspin. What is the physical science behind this one? 

    if you want to learn more about this, I recommend the Trackman Uni, which explains the physics behind this. Basically, you are looking for the lift and drag effect, where a certain amount of spin is required to make the ball fly. Without it, it would drop dead and also go left or right or both. The topspin is a non existing phenomena, its nothing but a term adapted by us players when we talk about reduced spin. You simply can't put topspin on a golfball, only add more or less. 

    WGT is rather good at simulate this. The example you mentioned can have different results depending where you take that shot. Less spin - less carry distance but a longer roll out and vice versa, The end result is dependant on the ground condition, where a hard links course (StA) will allow the ball to bounce and roll, while a softer inland course will decrease the roll out. 

    There's a fine balance between adding too much or too little spin to the ball - just as in real golf. That's why professionals spend a lot of time testing various balls with various spin rate combined with their equipment and style of play. 

    its worth testing and evaluate, the game is sophisticated enough to give us different results from the same shot depending on where we play and in different conditions. That's probably why I still find it interesting. 

     

  • Cicero733
    1,279 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 4:20 PM

    Thanks really appreciate it. Physics was not my forte but your comment about lift and drag is bringing some of this back, lifting the ball up to counter the drag force or something along those lines. Makes much more sense with your explanation. Thanks again.

  • K7JBQ
    1,461 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 4:37 PM

    In my experience, and others may differ, a 12 foot putt is too long to off ding consistently. I rarely off ding over 3 feet.

  • Cicero733
    1,279 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 5:25 PM

    When you off ding at the lesser distances do you adjust your aimer?

  • KenBTEXAS
    202 Posts
    Wed, Oct 20 2021 7:58 PM

    I go out to 4 or 5' and do NOT move the aimer.

    2 caviats...

    1) I hit it hard.

    2) how much to off ding is a learned trick... much depends on which putter you use.

    EDIT: on longer putts I try to hit the ding. But with my eyes that is a tough task. I do         however try to ensure that IF I miss the ding it is to the high side of the putt.

    I only know of one person that regularly off dings with success.

    Am sure there are more. 

    AJARKOVI, and she has books and books and books of notes..

    she has not broadcast in a while, but there are a few videos here.

    https://www.twitch.tv/selaardvark

  • Slimjim001
    685 Posts
    Thu, Oct 21 2021 5:28 AM

    I am not an authority on “off-ding putting” but I have used it a lot both with the old flash system and the new version. I can say this. Off-ding putting is much more difficult with the new version and much less reliable than conventional putting methods. You may recall that with the flash version swing meter, when you loaded your power with your cursor and held it for a moment, two vertical lines, one on either side of the ding line, would close in toward the ding line and eventually settle to a stop. This meant that the meter was fully loaded and ready to release. Where those lines stopped gave you an indication of how much off-ding adjustment you needed to make for your putt conditions. However, the new version does not do that which means that you need to figure some other way of determining how much off-ding adjustment to make. This is where it gets complicated; adjusting for elevation, green speed and dot speed and your putter setting…how far left or right of the ding line to click.

    Using the Putt Pal, the right side of your swing meter is highlighted in blue with the ding line in the center. What I have done is to create a transparent overlay for my shot meter. It took some doing but this overlay covers the blue area exactly. It is a transparent strip that I’ve inserted slightly between my monitor screen and frame so I now have a segmented ding area. I experimented using each distance mark in the meter until I know how much off-ding needed for each putt condition. If you don’t have some way to measure the off-ding distance, it is just a wild guess and unlikely to ever work well.

    Some critical things to remember: 1) the farther you off-ding from the ding line, the more power is needed to compensate.  2) Off-ding putting is probably only good for putts from 2 to 10’.  3) Handle elevation the same as in conventional putting methods. 4) To off-ding with the new version requires much more off-ding distance from the ding line than with the old flash system.

    At this point, because of all the variables, it would be impossible for me to give you some sort of calculation chart for every putt. I think the reason many use the off-ding method is because it seems simpler but I really don’t think it is. If you want to us this off-ding method, you need to experiment with it until you have some numbers to apply to each shot meter segment point for various putt conditions.

    If you think it would help, I would be willing to play a round with you while using Discord or Skype chat so I can explain what I am doing. Unless you just don’t want to deal with conventional putting methods, I suggest you don’t mess with off-dinging. Its a poor substitute. Hope this helps.

  • Cicero733
    1,279 Posts
    Thu, Oct 21 2021 6:22 AM

    Unless you just don’t want to deal with conventional putting methods, I suggest you don’t mess with off-dinging. Its a poor substitute.

    Thanks for your input and guidance. I believe you are right. I’m happy with my current method and thought I would try off ding to see if it offered any additional benefits. It appears that it doesn’t.

  • Mythanatos
    1,997 Posts
    Thu, Oct 21 2021 7:15 AM

    Two ways to look at off dinging.

    the original way that is the one usually talked about is not moving the marker out of the hole  and compensating by missing ding left or right and the amount varying on the break and distance.  

    The above is foreign to me and i wouldn't do it.

    the second is moving the marker like normal but not actually trying to hit the ding but missing slightly into the break.

    If you mess around with practice mode much you will find that you can read a green. practice the putt and see what it does if you were to ding it. This is pretty accurate and except for super long putts very consistent.

    If you mess around with it long enough you find that you don't actually have to hit the ding for it still to go in as long as the miss is slightly into the break. However even if you barely miss the ding with the break it almost always will miss if it's a putt over 4-5 feet.

    So the conclusion here is to not actually try to ding the putt but hedge on the side that consistently gives you more makes. if you read it right and then hit ding or slightly miss it into the break it will go in. 

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