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Jan Match Play Tournament

• marioh 1,055 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:18 PM

  Since Nivlac is the previous winner, he should at least get a first round bye.

   

  That way I have a fighting chance in the first round!   :)

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:47 PM

   Some things to consider:

  1.  There is a distinct advantage to being the 2nd player in a multiplayer game, as you can watch the deviation of your opponents shot and learn a little bit about how the hole is playing.  Until each player has his/her own set of individual deviations that are independent of another players, this will be an inherent inequity of any match play formula.  Keep this in mind when deciding who does the inviting, as the inviting player is immediately put at a disadvantage.

  2.  There are distinct 9 hole patterns in which the ball moves left/right with a degree of consistency.  Any player with a knowledge of these patterns is also at a distinct advantage in any Match Play format, as any knowledge of ball movement on holes 5 and 8 give that player an inside edge.  Until the game stops patternizing its play, this will always create inherent inequities in Match Play.  Keep this in mind, as a few players at the top of this tournament have this knowledge, including the last winner.

  I see these 2 issues as dealbreakers for this and any future Match Play formats.  I'm seriously not trying to be a spoil sport here, just pointing out the inherent flaws of the system so that all players know at the start what to expect from certain elements of gameplay in Match Play format.  Until these flaws are remedied, there will be no truly 'fair' Match Play here at WGT.

   

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 3:49 PM

  *late edit*  tibbets:  D: That's kind of harsh.  Your post implies that the mere presence of myself and few others makes the whole event unfair.  I'm trying hard not to be offended by that.  There are tangibles and intangibles in this game. Some players, not excluding yourself, are better able to execute them than others.  It is exactly the same as what accounts for our averages and that runs nearly parallel with the stroke play tournament results we see each month.  You could apply your argument across the entire site if you really wanted to. 

  We do our best to keep it as fair as we possibly can.  After all, we're only in this to have fun and enjoy a little variety from the mundane.  I take it you won't be joining us then... :(

   

  marioh:

  Since nivlac is the previous winner, he should at least get a first round bye.

  I've managed to lower my average slightly since I registered.  Technically, I'd now be the #2 seed.  As returning champion... *flex*... (yes I have to do that :D), I think I've earned the privilege to defend the #1 spot.  The next winner should have the right to defend and so on and so forth.  After all, I'm the one with the bounty on my head this time around. :D

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Sign up for the tournament here:  SIGN UP HERE

  View current entries here: ENTRY FORM DATA

• texasinaz 18 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:02 PM

   i would like to be included also. soory i miised the first one.

• marioh 1,055 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 4:19 PM

  Though I agree with Tibbs regarding those 2 valid points, I really see this tourny as a chance to play a different type of game with quality active players. There is no real prize (besides bragging rights), so the flaws can be easily overlooked and this can be seen as just a fun tournament, IMO. Cheers, Mario

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 5:45 PM

   Sorry to offend Nivlac.  I was merely pointing out some critical factors in determining the possibilities of fair play.  It is fact that both my points are fundamental truths to the gameplay here, and they are not disputable.  I hardly feel it's harsh to point them out to the community at large.

  I have taken great care to personally tutor no less than 2 dozen players here on the intracacies of ball movement, distance variation, putting, and pattern recognition.  Half the top ten are included in this list, including yourself.  What I am stating here are fundamental flaws in the system that need to be rectified to improve the quality and fairness of WGT gameplay.  If these things are not addressed and discussed, then you will have players like me, who have been at the top of the leaderboard for 3 months now, finding the 'method' and continuing to dominate gameplay.  I don't think anyone wants to see that happen.

  We here are bound by an unwritten code to compete fairly.  In the spirit of that ideal of fairness, I maintain that the game as it stands is at its most unfair in any multiplayer format, including Match Play.  Trust me, I'd like to have Match Play included in our experience here as much as anyone, but without a level playing field it just doesn't seem to live up to our high goal of fair play.

  I'm certainly not trying to stop anyone from creating or competing in impromtu competitions.  I do however think the time has come, now that enough of us have a decent grip on how the game works, to address the issues inherent in the system at large that aren't bug-related.  In the end, we'll end up with a better game to play for everyone, and perhaps the separation we see between players scores will decrease.

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Wed, Jan 7 2009 7:06 PM

  tibbets:

  I was merely pointing out some critical factors in determining the possibilities of fair play.  It is fact that both my points are fundamental truths to the gameplay here, and they are not disputable.  I hardly feel it's harsh to point them out to the community at large.

  First of all, I need to point out that I am very grateful for the lessons I've learned from you.  You've absolutely made me a better player in regards to the intangibles of the game and there is no denying that fact. 

  The harsh comment was reflective of the raining on the parade, whether intentionally or not.  This is intended to be a 'for fun' Match Play Tournament for folks to get together, have a good time, get to know each other and play for some meaningless bragging rights.  Winning is supposed to take a back seat to the experience itself.  If I was only concerned with winning, I wouldn't have personally invited you; someone who I know can beat me rather handily regardless of what order we play in.

  Your points are all fine and I understand where you're coming from.  My point is I don't understand why right now, in this thread, was the time you've decided it was necessary to discuss it.  This is not meant to offend, but you've never had this issue with 'fair play' while you've continued to take home all of the first place prizes in the stroke tournaments.  Why now, in our meaningless match play tourney is it such an issue?  I'm staring up a huge mountain when I'm standing on the first tee knowing I need at least a 31 to tie you.  I'm not going to just roll over and give up.  I'm going to try my hardest to beat you anyway.  Ultimately, you're just using and executing the 'method' better than me (probably putting better too). That is the nature of the beast at the moment.

   If I was an outsider looking in, I would say that point #2 implies that myself (and others) are exploiting an unfair advantage thus, why should anyone bother playing at all.  That is why I was offended.  I'm afraid we may have lost any further signups because you've declared that "there will be no truly 'fair' Match Play."  A simple 'no thanks' to my invite would have been fine.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Thu, Jan 8 2009 5:46 AM

   

  My apologies, it's just that enough people had inquired as to why I would not be joining the Match Play that I felt it would be best to share my thoughts here.  Worry not, the dust from my comments will settle and people will be excited to play.  Think of it this way:  better it come out now from a non-participant than after (or worse, during) from a disgruntled participant.

  If nothing else, use point #1 as a way to further level the playing field.  Perhaps the high-seeds do the inviting (and go first in the match), or a random draw to decide play order.

• AvatarLee 1,644 Posts

  Thu, Jan 8 2009 6:06 AM

  Just as a thought to consider relating to point #1.... There are many times during the course of an actual round (be it matchplay or strokeplay) that one golfer is able to deduce information from the previous golfers shot.  Be it wind effect, bounce and roll effect, or speed/break on a green.  The only true disadvantage exists on the very first tee for the first golfer (inviter).  Otherwise, whomever wins the previous hole goes first and is at the disadvantage.  It's really up to the players to take the best line possible and out shoot your opponent (closer to the flag) so you can gather as much info as you can for the next shot.  Considering the caliber of the players in the field this can easily bounce back and forth. 

  My 2 cent... take it for what it's worth, and as always HAVE FUN!

• seveking 983 Posts

  Thu, Jan 8 2009 6:19 AM

   Right, I think we've all realised by now that nobody meant to offend anyone. The more we go on about the little or big damage that tibbets comments could have made to possible participants, the more that damage will increase, so now let's just concentrate on organising the tournament and getting plenty of people before Sunday.