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Uneven lies...

• CerinoDevoti 3,232 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 7:03 AM

  YankeeJim:

  Corwyn:

  I found the best way to learn Unevens was with Starter Clubs and balls,

  CD also espouses this and I'm curious as to why. If you know your current clubs really well would you be making it more difficult by using them straight away? I understand the risk about losing the ball while you're learning but when they're only 22-40 credits each that factors out.

  I feel this uneven can only be learned best as if you're a beginner to feel it out. Feel and imagination is extremely important in creating shots. If anyone can get around in par or better with the starters from the front 2 tee boxes they've built the foundation. Once that bedrock of experience is under your feet, the good clubs hone in that much closer. I also recommend the starters so we don't compare our play to our best play with our best clubs. I'm positive that's why there was so much negativity right out of the gate. Some of the top players complained like crazy when it first came out because they were comparing their "even" scores to what they couldn't do with the "uneven" lies. I'm of the type that only concerns myself with what I do have and I can do. What it can't do doesn't matter to me. I'm constantly looking to get the most out of the resource we do have available.

  I make no bones about it, the uneven lies is WAY HARDER and takes WAY MORE patience than the even lie game. Acceptance of par has to become a part of our game or you'll get mad or go mad in the process.

• Corwyn 2,410 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 7:10 AM

  Hi YJ!

  I should clarify this. Starters were all I had at the time, and so maybe that made it easier for me.

  I think it's about minimizing the variables so you can understand the impact of the unevens as you try to learn them. For instance, many players switch between starter ball for practice and expensive balls for competition. But, yes, if you know your clubs (and ball combination) really well then you can factor in the distance effects quite easily. 

  Perhaps the biggest factor is one of expectation. With Starter clubs and balls and playing Unevens, I made Old Man Par my target. In doing so, that's where you get the fun of experiencing what the course architect was trying to do; after all, there's a reason par is par!

  I believe you'll have a much better time getting to grips with Unevens if you lose the expectation of making birdies more often than not. Then, when you have a better idea of what's happening, start being more selectively aggressive, knowing what the risks are. What's great about Unevens is that trouble really is trouble (and really is akin to the tough conditions of a Major). If you get into bunkers or greenside rough, you may well have a really nasty lie where just getting it back into play is the best option.

  Have fun!

• CerinoDevoti 3,232 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 7:13 AM

  I could go on forever. ;-)

  Something that helped me a whole lot is viewing replays of most of my uneven lies shots. Set your aim and hit the shot but remember where you set the aim point. I use bunkers mostly because they're a fixed point I can see on replays. Center of bunker or left or right edge. Be as specific as possible.  When watching a replay of a shot put the curser where you aimed while watching. That way you get visual feedback right away of the shot. The vapor trail in all replays is a tremendous tool to watch as the ball is incoming on approach shots. As I think of more stuff I'll add to the thread.

• forcefan 279 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 9:53 AM

  This is a superb thread. I'd completely forgotten about the Uneven Lies option. Thank you to CerinoDevoti for sharing your vast knowledge in this area. 

• CerinoDevoti 3,232 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 3:24 PM

  forcefan:

  This is a superb thread. I'd completely forgotten about the Uneven Lies option. Thank you to CerinoDevoti for sharing your vast knowledge in this area. 

  Conversation about the Uneven lies started back up because WGT is finally offering Tournaments with the feature turned on. The Tour Legends have one running now and on Jan 1st, Master through Tour Legend will have a tiered Tournament to compete in. Get some practice in now. ;-)

• CerinoDevoti 3,232 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 3:35 PM

  Let's talk about bunker lies.

  First off avoid them if at all possible. If you find yourself in a greenside bunker the color of the lie box is information you must take note of. Yellow box means the option to hit directly at the pin is possible but med-high risk. Sometimes just playing out is the best option. If the box is red, you're pretty much dead. Only super high risk shots are going to get out of the bunker and on the green. What I've observed is hitting punch wedges can get you out of the red box lie. A lob wedge punch from a red box lie goes about 5-10 yards max. A sand wedge goes about 8 -15 yards and a low 50 something degree wedge goes about 12-20 max. Again, this is set to punch. If you hit it without punch on a very uphill lie you end up hitting the ball nowhere or even behind you.

  I've been in bunkers where the box is red and I'm too far away to risk a punch going nowhere. I move the aimer around the bunker until it changes color to yellow. Now I'm looking at a lower risk shot but it's not always directly at the pin or even at the green. These are the moments where you have to take your medicine and live with it. It's not easy after playing on even lies and getting out of most anything. Uneven lies in bunkers is where you most see the difference. Like in true Open style golf, penalties are truly penalizing. Living with par or even living with bogie can be the only choice other than double or triple trying the miracle shot that's not going to work.

• Corwyn 2,410 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 4:03 PM

  Another option other than punching out of severe trouble is to take the extra club (or clubs!)

  Although this shot wasn't from inside the bunker, it gives a good example of one way to play out of trouble for a steep uphill lie.

  The replay won't show the Lie but if you view from #3 (and even #1 to see how long it's in the air) you can get a sense of how much elevation there is with the steep uphill lies, and how much you need the extra club.

  This was played with full power SW (i.e. a 70yd hit for an 11yd shot), with 3/4 backspin, and came out to an inch or two from the cup.

  In this instance I was worried there was so little green to work with, and landing on a downslope, it might be better to come in high and as soft as possible. In fact, the extremes that you can get with Uneven Lies often lead to the most interesting shots.

  Indeed, I wonder if a shot like this is the closest we can get on WGT to a Phil Mickelson type lob (e.g. his famous Masters example from 2012).

  As you can probably tell from the replay shot setup, I didn't have much sidehill lie to deal with, which made going for the pin a more realistic option. I'd agree though with Cerino above, that taking your medicine is often the best approach.

  Good course management is the best skill that Unevens teaches you!

• chris5214 1,937 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 4:37 PM

  well fellas .. after reading this thread, i gave it another go on front 9 of Kiawah .. 

  4 birds, 3 pars & 2 bogeys .. so shot 34 giving me -2 ..

  must admit i had some fun doin' it .. interesting to see the ball curve in the direction of the lie on longer shots .. closest i got to hole on uneven lie was from approx 160yds where i ended up 4yds from the hole .. managed to get within 2yds on both par 3's where one bird came from obviously ..

  played all shots, except one, from the fairway off green grids .. hittin' the fairway is key .. 

  gotta say that i still find the degree of aiming off green still way too severe .. not close to how that would play in real life .. example: #4 par 4 i had 190yds into pin .. green grid with dots not moving fast from right to left (ball slightly above my feet).. wind apposing lie left to right at 4mph .. i would normally aim half flag stick left on this shot to counter that 4pmh at that distance .. i decided to aim off green to the right in the direction of the wind .. my marker was on the other side of the fringe (aimed at the rough off green) .. missed ding one line to right (opposite wind) .. ball still ended up 11 yds left of pin .. way unrealistic ..

  still .. was fun

• YankeeJim 25,827 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 5:03 PM

  CerinoDevoti:

  Yellow box means the option to hit directly at the pin is possible but med-high risk. Sometimes just playing out is the best option. If the box is red, you're pretty much dead.

  Have you experimented with moving the aimer to change the color of the box? When you move it so it's green does that give you the best option?

• Corwyn 2,410 Posts

  Wed, Dec 26 2012 5:20 PM

  YankeeJim:

  Have you experimented with moving the aimer to change the color of the box? When you move it so it's green does that give you the best option?

  Absolutely! That gives you a much safer shot: Green is good, Yellow is harder, Red is downright scary! (And Black, by the way, is that rare thing, a perfectly flat lie!)

  So often, the best thing to do is move the aimer around, even if you have to go backwards, till you find a shot you can make to get the ball back in play (and ideally, look for a flat spot to play the next one from). 

  I've found the hardest part of Uneven Lies is having the discipline to accept the penalty, play out, and try to salvage par from somewhere manageable. (And I've learned that lesson after being stuck in bunkers for shot, after shot, after shot... etc). To me, that is a better representation of the difficulty of playing in a Major (after all, these are Major Championship courses we play on), than the artificial flat lies. It may not be fully 'realistic' but it does better represent the difficulty of play.

  I forget which year it was, but there was a reason Tiger made such an effort to play 72 holes without once going in a bunker the year he won The Open at St Andrews.