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Newer top tiers

Wed, Jun 27 2012 11:33 AM (73 replies)
  • MioKontic
    4,026 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 2:13 AM

    Gold - I've said many times already, WGT can't make the holes any longer because they are based on real live courses and tees!!!  In one breath you are asking for longer clubs and in the next you are asking for courses to be lengthened!!!

    And as Lou says, I have a sub-60 average, but in no way can I shoot sub 60 (sub 30 for 9 holes) every game.  And I never will.  I don't play weekly comps or Ready Go's... not because I don't want to, quite the contrary, but simply because I can't compete with the scores that are being posted.

  • saltiresfan
    2,266 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 2:44 AM

    Hence my suggestion for teeing off on the previous hole :)

  • G0LD
    358 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 5:24 AM

    MioKontic:

    Gold - I've said many times already, WGT can't make the holes any longer because they are based on real live courses and tees!!!  In one breath you are asking for longer clubs and in the next you are asking for courses to be lengthened!!!

    And as Lou says, I have a sub-60 average, but in no way can I shoot sub 60 (sub 30 for 9 holes) every game.  And I never will.  I don't play weekly comps or Ready Go's... not because I don't want to, quite the contrary, but simply because I can't compete with the scores that are being posted.

    First, in reference to previous posts about the way wgt calculates the scoring average, I completely agree that it is flawed, and leads to the absurd promotion of certain players to upper tiers where they do not truly belong. In my opinion, never should a scoring average - no matter how many rounds have been played - stop entirely to factor in higher scores. It should always retain the ability to go up or down, depending on whether a player plays poorly or well, although a certain proportion of his or her worst rounds could rightfully be ignored in the calculation. We all have bad days where we can't play worth a damn, but which are uncharacteristic, or inconsistent with our usual skill level.

    Now for your objection, Miok.. The truth is, if the natural boundary of a course makes it impossible to implement further tees, there is nothing that stops wgt from creating further and harder hole locations within the limits of each green. There is also the easy option of turning certain par 4's into par 3's, and certain par 5's into par 4's.

    A while back, as the best tour masters were increasingly posting sub-60 scores, wgt introduced the legend tier. Some people made quite a fuss about it, but in the end we all learned to cope with it, or even enjoy the new challenge at hand. What is more, the new legend conditions warranted the introduction of equipment upgrades, which were a welcome source of added revenue for wgt. The latter is a business after all, and we as members have a vested interest in seeing it thrive. 

    So my idea of an upper legend tier, called champion, for sub-60 legends, with farther and harder hole locations, and championship greens (to be considered also is the easy option of turning certain par 4's into par 3's, and certain par 5's into par 4's), paired with equipment upgrades, makes logical and practical sense. The fact remains, however, that the calculation of the scoring average urgently needs to be improved, to better reflect the real skill level of players, and prevent the absurd promotion of some of them to upper tiers where they do not truly belong.

  • SGTBilko
    1,686 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 5:56 AM

    G0LD:
    So my idea of an upper legend tier, called champion, for sub-60 legends, with farther and harder hole locations, and championship greens (to be considered also is the easy option of turning certain par 4's into par 3's, and certain par 5's into par 4's), paired with equipment upgrades, makes logical and practical sense. The

    Look we have been down this road before and after the last changes (summer 2011) all hell broke loose for months. Some of those changes were great but the forcing of people into the legend tier before they were ready based upon their average was the wrong approach. Now as for your suggestion. 1. Unless they have pictures of new pins on the greens they cannot just move it. 

    My suggestion has always been to create a new level for legends.

  • G0LD
    358 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 6:18 AM

    And this suggestion, SGT., ties in with mine (see my post above), and would clearly require some work on wgt's part.

  • MBaggese
    15,356 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 5:47 PM

    G0LD:
    Now for your objection, Miok.. The truth is, if the natural boundary of a course makes it impossible to implement further tees, there is nothing that stops wgt from creating further and harder hole locations within the limits of each green. There is also the easy option of turning certain par 4's into par 3's, and certain par 5's into par 4's.

    Are you saying a "Higher" legend Par 4 could be a "normal" par 5?

    I/e saying par at SA is 70 for "higher" Legends and 72 for "normal" legends?

    There is some merit to that I guess, like Mio said and I mentioned as well, I shoot my average 1 in 10 times.

    Now saying that (just in my case, unsure and do not care about others, it's just me) I play 99.9 percent Tourneys, and only WD .1 % of the time, check my score history of posting over par rounds in RG's to confirm.

    Why do I bring this up?  I could cut and paste into excell my last 200 rounds (as all WGT keeps in my profile page) and show my "real" average, not "potential" best.

    Now, you may say "well, that's a god idea, lets have WGT look at last 200 round for a real avrage".

    Hold up a bit,, once this gets around, any TM moving up will know this and STILL play/game the system.

    Just my thoughts and I respect yours Gold, as I always do.

  • G0LD
    358 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 7:17 PM

    MBaggese:

    Are you saying a "Higher" legend Par 4 could be a "normal" par 5?

    ...Just my thoughts and I respect yours Gold, as I always do.

    Yes, my friend, and thank you.

    Also, regarding the scoring average, your last 200 rounds idea is quite reasonable. But allow me to stress once more that "never should a scoring average - no matter how many rounds have been played - stop entirely to factor in higher scores. It should always retain the ability to go up or down, depending on whether a player plays poorly or well, although a certain proportion of his or her worst rounds could rightfully be ignored in the calculation. We all have bad days where we can't play worth a damn, but which are uncharacteristic, or inconsistent with our usual skill level."

    :-)

  • Richard4168
    4,309 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 7:33 PM

    I believe there's room to move the black tees back a little further. WGT has even moved them forward a bit from where they were when the Legend tier was first created.

    Scoring averages need to have more flexibility to move up or down with each completed round. Even if a player only plays one shot and quits in any game-mode, it should impact their average. The code needs to have more lines of recognition.

    Not because they quit either. Its about each individual shot affecting a players average.

  • MBaggese
    15,356 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 7:56 PM

    G0LD:

    MBaggese:

    Are you saying a "Higher" legend Par 4 could be a "normal" par 5?

    ...Just my thoughts and I respect yours Gold, as I always do.

    Yes, my friend, and thank you.

    Also, regarding the scoring average, your last 200 rounds idea is quite reasonable. But allow me to stress once more that "never should a scoring average - no matter how many rounds have been played - stop entirely to factor in higher scores. It should always retain the ability to go up or down, depending on whether a player plays poorly or well, although a certain proportion of his or her worst rounds could rightfully be ignored in the calculation. We all have bad days where we can't play worth a damn, but which are uncharacteristic, or inconsistent with our usual skill level."

    :-)

    I totally agree with you Gold.

    I think 99.99% of Legends here would agree as well.

    But, my concern would be for newer players moving up.

    Just as there are level 90 TP's with the best equipment, and stellar MP records, it makes me think they would move up, play a few 70-ish games, and actually sandbag the legend tier.

    That's why I am so happy about the "Legend RG at SA" right now.

    I don't care about the credits as much as I like t see how I can play with some/most of the best in high winds and champ greens.

    My concern is others just don't or won't feel the same way

    Thanks for letting me vent Gold!

     

  • LeonDelBosque
    1,551 Posts
    Thu, May 31 2012 8:15 PM

    T

    MBaggese:

    lvietri:

    Please .. as you look into it .. try to figure out a way to more accurately measure someone's ability.    The current "average score" depicted is in no way representative of what a players ability is.    Case in point ... I have an "average score" of 60.8.   There is no way I shoot that low on the average.    Bollox has an average score of 55.03 right now ... I will tell you he does not average this.      As long as the "average" only recalculates when lower scores are shot .... you will continue to be looking at different / lower tiers.    Eventually every legend will be under 60 ... and just moving down.

    Lou is dead nuts on this.

    I shoot sub 30 every 4 or 5 9's, mostly 30-32.

    Figure the math why should sub 60 avg have it harder?

    The problem as I see it is that it's called an "average," when it is not an average. Keep it for tier placement, but call it something else, like "scoring index."

    WGT should also have a real scoring average as a personal statistic.

    The problem with using a real average, or some sort of handicap, for tier placement, is that it would make sandbagging even easier. People could totally blow up their averages by shooting a few 99s.

    As far as the tee boxes go, pro/tour pro and master/tour master play from the same ones, why not legends/champions?

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