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Re: Alternative Shot unfairness

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Tue, May 3 2022 4:28 AM (17 replies)
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  • callaghan159
    6,214 Posts
    Sat, Apr 30 2022 7:07 PM

    SamSpayed:
    Brian, what you're talking about is setting the MINIMUM PLAYER RANK (eg. Legend) when setting up an AS game.  What elcasey is asking for is the option to set a MAXIMUM PLAYER RANK.

    OK... my bad...misread. LOL

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Sun, May 1 2022 3:27 AM

    SamSpayed:
    Brian, what you're talking about is setting the MINIMUM PLAYER RANK (eg. Legend) when setting up an AS game.  What elcasey is asking for is the option to set a MAXIMUM PLAYER RANK.

    Sounds like the sort of thing Henry would enjoy in MP, but I suppose there's no reason why not.

    It seems to me that everyone's "unfairness" is different these days.

    The OP starts out by saying it's the average "I don't get how the system matches up 2 68 average players vs 1 68 avg player & a 58 avg player. As a 68 avg player"

    Then "lol it's not about my win rate. I couldn't care less about that, you're the one who brought it up, as if i'm "concerned" about losing. The closer games are, the more fun it is. That's just a fact...and usually if you have even 1 out of 4 of the players who are way better than the other 3, whatever team he's on will win easily." and on to "I'm sure WGT could add an option for a maximum level of opponent, so that a Pro doesn't have to play a Tour Master, or a Master doesnt have to play against a Champion if he so desires."

    I know he meant maximum tier and not level (of opponent), but how about level?

    I wondered when/if this inbalance was happening what the effect would be. The simple answer seems if as suggested the better players side wins easily then one time in three the op would be on the winning side.  That would lower the win average below 50%.  I know this isn't every game so it wouldn't result in a win rate of 33% or anything like it but, all other things being equal, a little less than half games would be won.

    This is a L92 Master , ave 68.58, that's been playing since 2012.  In that time he's only played 312 rr's but is more experienced in Alt Shot with 1,479 games (894 wins and 585 losses). 

    So games based on average?: That's just so volatile, a round after tiering up it could be anywhere and left there if the player wanted, after saturation it only comes down.

    Tier:  The higher tiers are reached (most easily) by playing ranked rounds, winning credits, or somehow (I don't know how and I suspect more slowly) through coin games.  Alt Shot players who avoided these wouldn't raise tier much/at all (?) I think the op falls in this category he has one rr showing on his history and all his apparel is level 1.  I could be wrong, maybe he plays lots of coin games and just doesn't upgrade it.

    So we have someone with an alt shot win rate of just over 60% saying how higher tier players are making the games uneven. These higher tier players are likely to include L90 Legends giving him distance off the tee and an edge in experience, perhaps overall but even more so in alt shot.  Playing more rr's and less alt shot is hardly an advantage.


  • SamSpayed
    4,874 Posts
    Sun, May 1 2022 11:29 AM

    DodgyPutter:
    This is a L92 Master , ave 68.58, that's been playing since 2012.  In that time he's only played 312 rr's but is more experienced in Alt Shot with 1,479 games (894 wins and 585 losses). 

    Why even bring that up?  That has nothing to do with the OP's request.  He obviously prefers playing AS games.  So what?

    DodgyPutter:
    So we have someone with an alt shot win rate of just over 60% saying how higher tier players are making the games uneven. These higher tier players are likely to include L90 Legends giving him distance off the tee and an edge in experience, perhaps overall but even more so in alt shot.  Playing more rr's and less alt shot is hardly an advantage.

    You're missing the point.  All the OP is asking for, simply put, is the ability to set a tier limit when setting up AS games, so that the games can be more evenly-matched.  I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

    elcasey:
    The closer games are, the more fun it is. That's just a fact...and usually if you have even 1 out of 4 of the players who are way better than the other 3, whatever team he's on will win easily.

  • HamdenPro
    2,402 Posts
    Sun, May 1 2022 12:04 PM

    It appears to me, both Sam and Dodgy make valid points.

    Unless I am mistaken, it seems Dodgy's point is that the level may be just as, if not more, important that the tier.

    The OP, if he could, could set a maximum tier of Legend (so as to prevent being matched with Champions and Tour Champions). However, he could still end up facing off against a LVL 90 Tour Pro or LVL 98 Master. As players tier up differently if by solely ranked rounds vs. solely alt play (or coin rooms), setting limits on the Tier will not "even" the playing field.

    Oftentimes, we see a high level, low tier (Pro, Tour Pro) on top of the leaderboard in showdowns. Most would say "cheater" or "multi", when neither is true. It is just a high level, low tier, player. Someone who has played for a while, has experience, able to obtain good clubs and shoot from shorter tees than others.  There is no setting that could be programmed, imo, to prevent mismatches.

    In the end, Sam is correct. All he has to do is either exit the game before it starts, if he is joining, or hit the cancel on a player, if the OP is the one creating the game.

  • DodgyPutter
    4,690 Posts
    Sun, May 1 2022 1:49 PM

    SamSpayed:

    DodgyPutter:
    So we have someone with an alt shot win rate of just over 60% saying how higher tier players are making the games uneven. These higher tier players are likely to include L90 Legends giving him distance off the tee and an edge in experience, perhaps overall but even more so in alt shot.  Playing more rr's and less alt shot is hardly an advantage.

    You're missing the point.  All the OP is asking for, simply put, is the ability to set a tier limit when setting up AS games, so that the games can be more evenly-matched.  I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

     

    I'm not missing any point, I'm saying that having a higher tier player in some games isn't what is stopping his games being evenly matched.  The point of bringing up his playing record was to illustrate that.  If he's suffering from a better player joining his game how is his win record over 60%?  My explanation then is that as he plays mainly Alt Shot he has stayed at a low tier for many years himself, and is therefor off  shorter tees than players with similar skill and experience who have played recent ranked rounds and therefor tiered up.

    What I think that then illustrates is that tier isn't the only, or even the main, problem.  It would make more sense to have a Level button, only players below level XX.  Perhaps  an alt shot win % button makes most sense (for alt shot games), only players that have won less than XX% of their games.

    As resources are limited, no I don't think the creation of a maximum tier button is a worthwhile thing for WGT to prioritise.

    I can see a Spam in argue anything mode but I'm not in the mood so have fun. 

  • HamdenPro
    2,402 Posts
    Mon, May 2 2022 6:31 PM

    I just got finished playing an alt match. I was invited by one of the alleged greatest players, if not THE GREATEST, on WGT, so, talk about a mismatch.

    We were joined by a lower level Pro and a level 68 Tour Pro. So, yes, there are mismatches. As neither the Pro, or Tour Pro, cancelled out, we made the teams fair, by splitting up. So, it was a TL and Pro vs L and TP.

    The game was well matched and extremely fun. It came down to the last hole.

    So, how is that for a work around?

    The point is, we can try to make it as fair as possible, and still have an enjoyable game. Who won was not important, but I do see the OP's point.  Had we not made the teams fair, it would not have been as nearly enjoyable as it was.

    My take, every comment made in this thread made valid points - IMO.

     

  • callaghan159
    6,214 Posts
    Tue, May 3 2022 3:32 AM

    HamdenPro:
    we can try to make it as fair as possible

    I play mostly alt shot and been on both sides of the fairness thing. Sometimes I feel like quitting when teams are unfair to the good side of me. I prefer even teams and let the dice fall where they land. I don't care if I win or lose as long all have fun. Some feel they need to win all the time.....they take this silly game to serious.

  • ct690911
    7,190 Posts
    Tue, May 3 2022 4:28 AM

    I set the vast majority of the Alt games I played in. I strived to balance the teams the best I could, for the reasons stated in previous posts...FUN. I still ended up with a winning record (mainly my partners' doing), so both goals can be achieved simultaneously.

    W 6893- L 6581

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