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Improvement Suggestions

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Sat, Jan 10 2009 9:28 PM

  Throughout the forum there are suggestions of adding this or that to the game.  Often times less is more, and in the spirit of that notion, here are a few things I would like to see.

   

  1.  Augmentation or removal of the Flop shot

  This is supposedly one of the hardest shots in golf to pull off, and all I am noticing are very average players executing this shot with near perfection every time.  The reason this shot is so difficult and risky in real golf is that the club speed is very high, and accuracy of hit is paramount to its success. Any degree of mishit results in the ball flying quite far, many times up to 3x the distance intended, or going nowhere.  So, I'd either like to see this shot removed from our choices all together, or more preferably have the penalty for any mishit be a ball that either flubs and goes nowhere, or flies far past where it was intended.  You want to try and flop over that bunker?  Take your chances and hit it perfectly, or pay the price!

  This would encourage learning the fine Art of Chipping, and stop this pattern of players routinely running up somewhere near 18yds, flopping to 1yd or less (which is ridiculously easy to do, even mishit) and 1 putting or worse yet, flopping from the green because they have no confidence in their ability to execute a 54 ft putt.   If you don't have the skill to chip it on(or in)and 1 putt, then realistically you wouldn't even know how to do a flop, never mind execute it with such precision.

  I'm sure that any real golfers would agree with me here that this shot is the most unrealistic of all in this game, as it relates to its execution in real life. 

  2. Removal of patternized 9 hole left/right deviations

  I've already posted a few notes on the existence of such a thing, and it's gotten to the point that so many people have charts of how the holes play that it makes a mockery of the game. I am tired of watching players aim on the edge of the green on a par 3 when there is no good reason to do so, other than the fact that they know its going to move the opposite way off the tee. 

  No two rounds of golf are ever the same, and in the spirit of keeping things realistic here, lets just randomize the wind and deviation of the ball on every hole, and every round, for each player.  This keeps people from learning 'the system' and encourages learning how to play the course at hand, not the pattern.

  3.  Removal of the aiming arc for opponent in Multiplayer

  I have also posted about the current realities of the disavantageous position of playing first in a Multiplayer game.  The 2nd player gets to watch where the 1st player aimed their shot, watch how the ball flight deviates from that path, and adjusts their own shot based on the result.  I've even read of one golfer here talking about deceiving their opponent by intentionally mishitting the ball to combat this.  Ask any real golfer he/she ever purposefully mishit a shot to fool their opponent and the answer would be a resounding "No".  This is golf, not poker!!  We should do whatever we can to discourage these kinds of attitudes, as it turns the game into something it's not.

  In real golf, you dont see what your opponents aim point is, so there is no good reason we should see it in this game either.  We already have an element of this instituted into the system, as when you get to the green you can't see where your opponent is aiming his/her putt.  So, let's just extend that all the way back to the tee box and be done with this 'Follow-the-Leader' mentality that has crept into the game.  This would encourage players to learn how to play their own shots, not just copy what the first person did.

   

  My suggestions here are designed at putting a little more skill and fairness back into the game, with less predictablity of things that in reality aren't predicatable.  As we approach the release of 18 holes at Kiawah, and possibly the advent of new formats, we need to be extra mindful of keeping a level playing field from the start.  Keeping realism high is obviously a huge priority to the WGT experience, so let's do just that.  The fewer tricks there are, the more the underlying skill of the player and beauty of the game are revealed.

• nivlac 2,188 Posts

  Sun, Jan 11 2009 3:35 PM

  tibbets:

  You want to try and flop over that bunker?  Take your chances and hit it perfectly, or pay the price!

  You've hit the nail on the head here.  As someone who does play a flop shot in real golf I can tell you for certain that the precision required in executing this shot correctly is phenomenally high and so is the error rate.  So much so, that only even a handful of PGA Pros can execute it regularly.  As you've mentioned, just the slightest deviation in your clubhead's elevation will cause either a major "chunk", where you strike the ground first by accident and end up taking an abnormally large divot or the club bounces off the ground, or you "skull" it with the bottom of the club letting loose a low screamer that goes 30 yards to 50 yards beyond the green.

  tibbets:

  2. Removal of patternized 9 hole left/right deviations

  Yes.

  tibbets:

  3.  Removal of the aiming arc for opponent in Multiplayer

  I have also posted about the current realities of the disavantageous position of playing first in a Multiplayer game.  The 2nd player gets to watch where the 1st player aimed their shot, watch how the ball flight deviates from that path, and adjusts their own shot based on the result.  I've even read of one golfer here talking about deceiving their opponent by intentionally mishitting the ball to combat this.

  I'm that golfer and you kind of took my quote out of context.  I'd only said that because we were discussing ways in which this very problem could be combated as it related to Match Play.  I also said I'd only considered it, not actually put it into practice.  To be honest it wouldn't really be worth the risk in game.  In real life, there is no need to purposely mishit because there are so many more conditions present that will affect ball flight than there are in the game but, I digress.

  I agree with the meat of the 3rd point although, I disagree with your point that I can't see you aim on the course.  All I would have to do is stand behind you and look at where your shoulders, hips and feet are lined up.  I sometimes have to correct my wife's aim when we play.  She tends to aim left.  The problem is we all have the same swing and the same equipment so we'll all get the same results from a perfect shot.  In the absence of variable swing styles, more clubs or character attributes however, removing the aim arc is a good compensation.

  Good post overall, as usual.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Sun, Jan 11 2009 4:29 PM

   The quote was not meant as an indictment of you, merely to state where the systemic strategy of the game could lead to, were this current system of Follow-The-Leader allowed to continue.  The last thing any of us want to see is some silly chess match being played out on the course that has little to do with any true fascimile of golf.

  As far as the 3rd point goes, we already cannot see what club is chosen by the other player, save for being able to distinguish between fairway woods, irons, and a putter.  I see more good than harm in removing all known information about what and where the other other player is hitting.  Once again, it simply removes one of the systemic 'tricks' from play, and also removes what is clearly a point of contention where fairness is concerned.

• iconian 599 Posts

  Sun, Jan 11 2009 5:16 PM

   i agree with #3. i don't know if #1 can be totally fixed.

  #2 i think if you implement #3, #2 will solve itself.

• ncviz 527 Posts

  Sun, Jan 11 2009 8:04 PM

   Points #1 and #3 seem perfectly good. With respect to point #2, here's a few comments. Isn't the wind already random? If you were referred to each player then that would be good. About the deviations... I'm not sure what you mean by random there. Are you suggesting each hole randomly have shots go left or right? This would turn into a little like what the skills challenge currently is, which I don't particular like. But if you take it out all together you could be looking at sub 50 scores becoming the norm, which would be bad also I suppose. I have a solution/suggestion though :). How about moving the pins around? You would have different locations to hit for and have to account for different winds each round.

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Mon, Jan 12 2009 2:22 AM

   Thanks for the input nivlac, iconian, and ncviz.

  With regard to Iconian comment about #1 not being able to be fixed:  Currently, when we play a Full shot out of the sand, any mishit is magnified.  Why not just treat mishits with the flop in a similar fashion?  I'm sure one would think twice about using that Flop shot if they knew that any mishit would result in a shot wildly off target.

  With regard to Ncviz comment, "Isn't the wind already random?":  The answer is no.  If it were random, we would see for instance a 6mph headwind from time to time on hole#1, or a 6mph tail wind on hole#9, but we never do.  We get 6mph winds sometimes on hole#2 and hole#4, but thats it.  If the wind system goes up to 6mph at current, then why don't we ever see it on any other holes other than #2 and #4?  Because the wind isn't random.

  As far as the deviations go, I am saying that each hole already has a set of deviations from tee to green.  All I want is to remove the 9 hole pattern.  I shouldn't know that my shot will move left on that 5mph wind on hole #3 just because my shot deviated left on a 4mph wind on #1, and didn't deviate on a 4mph on #2.  As it stands, all one need to do is chart the winds and deviations left/right, and one finds repeating patterns in 9 hole sets.  This leads to learning a 'system', which is what I am trying to do away with.

  I'm imagining standing on the tee in a real game of golf and thinking about what I know at that point.  I certainly wouldn't know which way my shot would deviate based on any other hole(other than perhaps the wind).  I wouldn't know that my shot would deviate to the right just because my opponents shot went to the right(especially if there were a left moving wind).  I'd assume my opponent either aimed too far to the right, or mishit the ball.  The only thing I should know about my upcoming shot that has to do with my opponents shot is how the wind treated the ball in the air, and how the ball rolled once it hit the ground.  That's it.

   As it stands in the WGT game, we know much more than decribed above, and it's this very counter-intuitive prediction/chart based play that I would like to do away with.  All wind movement aside, If you want to guess that your next tee shot is going to move to the right, fine.  You should not, however, know it based on how other holes played, or how your opponents shot played.

• GOBUCKEYES 20 Posts

  Tue, Jan 13 2009 10:19 AM

   

  I CAN SEE WHERE #2#3 NEED TO BE CHANGED AND CAN AGREE TO #1 BUT THEN YOU NEED TO FIX THE CHIPPING PITCHING PART OF THE GAME  CAUSE YOU CAN BE IN THE RUFF ON HERE AND CHIP OR PITCH AND IT GOES NO WHERE ( WHICH IN REAL GOLF I WOULD FLOP IN THIS POSITION BECAUSE EASIER TO GET UNDER THE BALL ) I FLOP ON HERE ALMOST ALL THE TIME ANYMORE BECAUSE ITS THE ONLY SHOT OUT OF THE THREE THAT PLAYS NORMAL

• tibbets 1,043 Posts

  Thu, Feb 19 2009 7:33 PM

   I will add:

  4.  Removal of left/right deviations on putts.

  I know that WGT has a plan for varying degrees of deviations with different club sets, and while I think the current deviations are too extreme, I can live with them.  What I strongly disagree with is having putts deviate off the blade left or right.  Any golfer will tell you that, for the most part, a putter is a putter is a putter.  You choose one based on how it feels in your hands, and how its weighted based on your particular stroke.  All putters, even the crappy ones at Wal Mart, have straight, flat edged blades.  There are no bumps in them to explain why a putt that is hit perfectly should deviate from its aim point off the blade, sometimes so much so that it actually defeats the break (the break goes one way, you dont move the aim point, and the putt misses opposite the break ) So, keep the deviations in the other clubs if you must, but leave the putter out of the formula.  It just has no basis in reality.

  I would appreciate, and am still awaiting, some response from WGT on this entire thread.  This is the 2nd analysis of the workings of the game that I have provided(the Skills Challenge being the other)  which has gone unanswered and am beginning to wonder what the deal is.

• WGTadmin 1,166 Posts

  Fri, Feb 20 2009 4:15 PM

  Tibbets and friends

  We do really read all these threads and appreciate your feedback, even if we don't respond.  So thank you for your time in making this the best golf game online.

  In response to this thread, we have followed all the feedback in the forums on how the different shot types perform as well as the physics comments. We are looking into these and will address them.  In the future, new clubs should address the majority of the feedback and will provide players with the ability to adjust the game to fit their play style.

  We will also look into addressing the aim arc multiplayer suggestion in due time.  Thanks for your dedication and patience.

  all the best

   

  WGT