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Any math formulas to find putt distance?

Sun, Feb 23 2020 11:34 PM by AlejBaran. 48 replies.
  • carlos415 United States
    62 Posts
    Sat, Nov 13 2010 9:54 AM

    Lol thanks...I think I know how to play now

  • sdorr United States
    650 Posts
    Sat, Nov 13 2010 10:09 AM

    Although everyone has their methods for sinking putts, myself included, I find it all boils down to one simple factor. ME. For example, I have a 9ft. putt, one that I have had many times before, I know the speed, I know where to aim, I pull the putter back, release it and miss the sweet spot (excellent) to the left or right just by a fraction and watch the ball just miss the hole, dipping around, or sometimes doing a 270 degree spin around the hole and ending up 6ft. away. I just have to laugh and say to myself "that was stupid". All of the formula's in the world can't fix my slow reflexes. Better luck to you.

  • CharlemagneRH United States
    1,054 Posts
    Sat, Nov 13 2010 10:25 PM

    WGTicon:
    Hi,

    Because each hole has different elevation, undulation, slope, and so on, I do not think it's possible to have a formula. Instead, notes are your guide. If you hit putt from a spot on a specific hole and it does something good or very bad, make a note of it. Next time you are there, you will have previous notes and can adjust.

    -wgticon

    Mathematical formulas work very nicely for putting.  A few quirks come up here and there, but it's a lot easier to putt 98% of putts with a formula and remember only a few quirks than it is to keep track of every single putt, imo.

  • gsoup United States
    2,928 Posts
    Sun, Nov 14 2010 4:07 AM

    I have a good formula that works well

    pick club that is closest to yardage needed

    adjust for windage and elevation

    double check you have right club (my caddy is on crack)

    use mouse to begin your golf stroke

    release when at correct swing level

    CLOSE YOUR EYES AND HOPE YOU GET A DING

    all there formulas and wild ass guesses Im so confused

    still just a game right?

    keep it in the short stuff

    _Soup

     

  • SimonTheBeetle Canada
    1,324 Posts
    Sun, Dec 1 2019 5:54 PM

    Richard4168:

    This is the complete physics on golf. It should answer all your golfing questions. After reading and deciphering all this information, what else is there?

     

    The Physics of Golf

    In order to calculate and produce a realistic ball fight trajectory in the simulator, I had to do quite a bit of research into the physics of golf. Here are some of the aspects that I have taken into account that might be of interest to you. 

    Dimples on the ball and the Magnus effect

    As you probably already know, the dimples on the golf ball are there to give the ball more lift and reduced drag during its flight and therefore increase its carry through the air.

    This graph - which was generated by the GGS trajectory calculation routines - shows just what a difference those little dimples actually make to the distance the ball will travel. As you can see, a ball with the appropriate depth dimples and top spin will travel far further than a ball with no dimples at all. Those little dimples actually scope the air on its front and top surface and throw it back behind the ball. This causes turbulence which prevents the pressure behind the ball from falling and thus the pull back effect that would have. It also causes the air-flow above the ball to travel faster and thus the pressure on the ball from the top to be lower than the air pressure below the ball. This pressure difference (i.e. more relative pressure from below than on top) causes the ball to lift and stay in the air for a longer time. This phenomenon is known as the Magnus effect

                                             

    Drag behind a spinning golf ball with and without dimples

    Ball Spin

    This pushing and lifting effect is dependent on the top-spin rate of the ball. When the ball is struck properly by a lofted club, the ball will tend to travel or roll up the club-face before it is launched.  This causes the ball to anti-clockwise spin at a rate  governed by the speed, loft and surface friction of the club head face at impact. Typical ball spin-rates are:

    3,600 rpm when hit with a 10° driver (8° launch angle) at a velocity of 134 mph

    7,200 rpm when hit with a 5 iron (23° launch angle) at a velocity of  105 mph

    10,800 rpm when hit with a 9 iron (45° launch angle) at a velocity of  90 mph

    Topping the ball (i.e.. when the bottom of the club-face hits the ball above its center) will cause the ball to spin in the other direction - i.e.. downward - which will cause the ball to dive into the ground.

    With really high spin rates the magnus lifting effect will actually increase the ball's rate of climb. The effect is known as blow-up and usually remains the domain of the real hard hitters. 

    Of course the wind strength and direction will also affect the ball's flight.

    Apart from this top and bottom spin around the ball's horizontal axis, there is also the amount of side spin that the ball may have. The side spin is induced by the club hitting the ball with an open or closed face at a path other than 90° to the ball's intended direction.  

            

    The Slice

    Hitting the ball with an open club-face and a club-path from out to in will cause the ball to spin from left to right. The ball's flight will then curve to the right or 'Slice'.

    The Hook

    Hitting the ball with a closed club-face and a club-path from in to out  will cause the ball to spin from right to left. The ball's flight will then curve to the left or 'Hook'.

    Golf ball flight trajectory traces in the GGS system.

    From left to right: Pull-hook, pull, pull-slice, straight-hook , straight, straight-slice, push-hook, push and push-slice.

    Average Distances

    • 3-IRON : 170-190 yds (155-174m)

    • 4-IRON : 160-180 yds (146-163m)

    • 5-IRON : 150-170 yds (137-155m)

    • 6-IRON : 140-160 yds (128-146m)

    • 7-IRON : 130-150 yds (119-137m)

    • 8-IRON : 120-140 yds (110-128m)

    • 9-IRON : 110-130 yds (101-119m)

    • Pitching : 90-110 yds (82-101m)

    • Sand Wedge: up to 80 yds (73m)

    • DRIVER : 200-240 yds (183-219m)

    • 3-WOOD : 190-220 yds (174-201m)

    • 5-WOOD : 170-190 yds (155-174m)

    • 7-WOOD : 160-180 yds (146-165m)

    Calculating Flight Trajectories

    Now's the time to put all this physical theory into practice. 

    Basic parabolic flight

    If a golf ball didn't have any dimples and we neglect any other aerodynamic effects such as drag and wind, then the trajectory calculation is really very simple.

    For any given time (t) the distance traveled (x component) is 

    x(t) = (Vo cosm)t

    and the height (y component) at any given time (t) is 

    y(t) = (Vo sinm)) - (gt²)/2

    where Vo = initial velocity of ball

    g = gravitational acceleration 9.8 m/s/s

    m = the launch angle in radians

    All simple stuff but unfortunately - for me that is - a golf ball's trajectory is not that simple and thus not that simple to calculate.

    First off we've got that Magnus effect (lift on a spinning dimpled ball) to apply. In my system I have used the  following formula to estimate the Magnus lift force :

    FL = (dvr4 av 2di²)(2r)

    where d = density of air at 60° = 2.37 * 10-³

    v = velocity

    r = ball radius

    av = angular velocity in radians per second (if you have spin, n, in rpm, them av = (2pi n)/60

    An adapted version of the same formula is also used to determine the force on the x plane (left/right direction) which causes the ball to curve. The vertical and horizontal spin rates of the ball are calculated from the incoming data feed from the sensor mat in the system.

    Then we have the wind force and air drag to deal with which acts on all of the 3 dimensions of the flight (x,y,z) whereby 

    x is the left/right direction/deviation of the ball flight

    y is the height

    and z the distance traveled ahead

    The drag force can be written as:

    Fd = -Cdv

    Fd = -Cdvx -Cdvy -Cdvz 

    where Cd is the drag coefficient, v is the velocity of the ball (vx,vy,vz are its components) and the minus sign means that this drag force opposes the ball's motion.

     

    The side view of the trajectory will then look something like this.

     Terminal velocity

    Due to air resistance a falling golf ball will not continue on accelerating at the rate of 9.8 meters / per second / per second. It will eventually reach a maximum falling velocity dictated by its mass and area. This velocity is known as Terminal Velocity and in the case of a golf ball with a radius of 2.1 cm, an area of 14cm² and a mass of 46 grams, this will be 32 meters per second or 72 mph.

    Wind force

    Wind force is defined as

    Fw = -Cwvw

    where Cw is the drag coefficient and vw is the wind speed.

    Defining the wind direction as measured by angle y I use the following formulas to determine the x and z components of the wind force on the ball:

    Fxw = Fw cos y = -cos y(Cwvw

    Fzw = Fw cos y = -sin y (Cwvw) 

     

    If there is any side spin on the ball - and there usually is - then the ball will curve in the direction of the spin.

    Side wind will, of course, cause the ball to curve in its direction and head or tail wind will affect the ball's carry.

    Also of interest is the research work done by P.W. Bearman and J.K. Harvey  (P.W. Bearman and J.K. Harvey - Golf ball aerodynamics, Aeronautical Quarterly, pp. 112 - 122, May 1976 ) The following formulas are used to calculate the height, distance, acceleration and velocity of a flying golf ball for any given time t -  n=0 to n= (until ball hits ground)

    Where:

    • p is density of air at sea level = 1.225 kg/m3 

    • S is on stream surface ( = pi r², r = 20.55 mm) = 1.3267×10-³ m² 

    • 'm' is mass of the ball = 0.050 kg 

    • a is the instantaneous angle between the instantaneous velocity and the horizon. 

    • CD is the drag coefficient, which has the same direction as the instantaneous velocity. 

    • CL is the lift coefficient, which direction is perpendicular to the instantaneous velocity. 

    • dt is the time step ('step size'). After every time step the simulation will be recalculated. 

    • 'x' is the coordinate in the direction of the range. 

    • 'y' is the coordinate in the direction of the height. 

     Collision theory

    When the clubface collides with the ball it's total contact time is approximately 0.0005 seconds and the peak force applied to the ball can be as high as 4000 pounds

    .

    This high force actually compresses the ball at impact.

    Due to the elasticity of the ball (compression) and the clubface (Metal woods) the ball will be launched at a higher velocity than that of the club head at impact. Average factors are 1.46 for a driver, 1.30 for a 5 iron and 1.12 for a 9 iron. 

    i.e. the ball's speed just after impact will be this factor greater than the club head speed

     

     

    Calculating ball launch velocities
    Formulas used to determine this increase in ball velocity are:

    vball = ((velc*(1.67))/(1.0+(ball/mass)))

    where : 

    vball = the velocity of the ball
    velc = club head speed.
    ball = mass of ball
    mass = mass of club head

    and 1.67 = coefficient of restitution

    The coefficient of restitution (1.67)
    accounts for momentum loss and the fraction of the energy into a collision that a collision "gives back."

    Including the loft of the club the formula is:

    vballi = ((cos (loft))^2*(sin(90-loft))*vball

    where:
    Vballi = Velocity of the ball after impact with a lofted club
    vball = ((velc*(1.67))/(1.0+(ball/mass)))

    loft = Loft of the club
    90-loft = The compliment of the loft of the club
    vball = The velocity of the ball determined by the previous formula.

    Calculating Spin Rates

    The equation 5/7 f v sin 0 is used to calculate the vertical velocity of the ball traveling up the club head face where f is the fraction of speed remaining when the compression of the ball is considered,  0 is the angle of the clubface at impact and v is the velocity of the club head.

    To calculate the side spin I use an adapted version of the same formula using the degrees the clubface is open or closed in relation to the club head path.

    Knowing the ball velocity and the circumference of the golf ball the theoretical spin rate can be calculated as:

    spin rate in rpm = (bv / c) /60

    where c = circumference of the golf ball = 0.043m  and bv = 5/7 f v sin 0

    Both top spin and side spin are used to produce a ratio of the true spin rpm and direction

    i.e. if top spin = 3600 rpm at 0° and  side spin = 900 rpm at 90° or -90° (left or right) then

    ratio = 900:3600 = 0.25

    assuming a ratio of 1:1 would result in a spin direction (or axis tilt) of 45°

    then spin direction  = 45° * 0.25 = 11.25°

    Bounce

    When the golf ball eventually hits the ground, it will tend to bounce a number of times whereby the height and angle of the bounce is very dependent upon what type of surface it hits.

    When the golf ball hits a hard surface like a footpath, then the bounce will be very profound (aprox. 50% of its falling height). However, most of the time it will hit the fairway or the green - hopefully - or maybe in the rough. Here the energy absorbed by this type of surface is very significant and the ball will only bounce a fraction of what it would if it had hit a hard smooth surface.

    In my system I have created formulas that take all these factors into account including the deviation the angle of bounce will have on inclined soft surface. This is not the same as on a hard surface like a footpath or hitting a tree trunk. On a hard surface we can say that the angle the bounce flight will be near the angle of impact reversed. However, on a soft(er) surface, because of the energy absorbed, the angle of bounce launch will be more towards the surface angle normal.

    Rolling on inclined planes

    After the ball has stopped bouncing and landed it will tend to roll for a certain distance. If the plane is horizontal then the amount of roll can be calculated from its velocity and the friction of the surface.

    If, however, the ball lands on an inclined plane, then we have to take into account the force the angle of the plane will have on the ball.

    The above formula is used to calculate the force on the ball in the x direction up and down a plane, where mg is the force due to gravity, Ff the opposing force due to friction and ax is the linear acceleration in the x direction. The friction force is equal to us N where  u is the coefficient of friction of the surface and N is the normal reaction force between the ball and the plane.

    Things start to get a bit complicated - to say the least - when the ball is rolling on a contoured surface like a green. Here I have to make continual calculations and adjustments to the direction and speed of the ball taking into account the momentum the ball has in a certain direction. At each time step I check the slope angle and direction and calculate a curve for the ball to follow depending on the magnitude of the force the slope is exerting on the ball. If, at any following steps this slope changes, I recalculate the curve and apply this to its current path at a rate governed by its current velocity or momentum. 

    When all the calculations of the flight trajectory, bounce and roll are done, the results are stored in a table. This table contains the 3 dimension (z,x and y) co-ordinates of all the steps and is in turn read by the flight routines. When the system gets the launch (fire) command from the sensor mat and all the club head and clubface angle and velocity data have been read, the system calculates the trajectory and a timer is started to produce timer events at 0.05 second intervals. The timer event handler then reads the next coordinates for the step from the flight trajectory table, removes the image of the ball on the screen at the last step and displays it again at the new position. The 'Trajectory Trail On" feature of the system prevents the system from removing the ball image so the user can see the exact trail of the trajectory. This feature had been switched on for all the screen shots shown on this site. 

    The above graph shows the distance a ball will roll for a given initial velocity and a given green speed.

    The GGS system allows you to vary the graph used in the ball roll calculations from linear to exponential as well as the green speed.   

     Ball Velocity/Carry Graph for all clubs

    You can see and adjust the ball carry for every club and for every ball velocity.

     

    "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off."

    !!! Holy...

  • DonCaron United States
    5,241 Posts
    Sun, Dec 1 2019 7:16 PM

    SimonTheBeetle:
    !!! Holy...

    I will add Molly

  • SimonTheBeetle Canada
    1,324 Posts
    Sun, Dec 1 2019 7:27 PM

    DonCaron:

    SimonTheBeetle:
    !!! Holy...

    I will add Molly

    Thanks for completing the phrase, don.

  • mkg335 United States
    5,485 Posts
    Sun, Dec 1 2019 10:01 PM

    I have to disagree regarding the function of the dimples.  The ball is manufactured with dimples in order to make it appear cuter, thus increasing its chances of getting a date to the big dance.

    Of course I have no data to back up this claim, am speaking anecdotally.  I just know that my balls always looked forward to date night.

  • DonCaron United States
    5,241 Posts
    Mon, Dec 2 2019 2:46 PM

    SimonTheBeetle:

    DonCaron:

    SimonTheBeetle:
    !!! Holy...

    I will add Molly

    Thanks for completing the phrase, don.

    I think I'm giving away my age

  • callaghan159 Canada
    4,551 Posts
    Mon, Dec 2 2019 3:00 PM

    DonCaron:

    SimonTheBeetle:

    DonCaron:

    SimonTheBeetle:
    !!! Holy...

    I will add Molly

    Thanks for completing the phrase, don.

    I think I'm giving away my age

    I love your formula Simon. Going to give it a try next round.. LMFAO

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