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Re: WGT should fix Showdowns, here's why

• Mythanatos 2,203 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 10:47 AM

  el3n1:

  But you also answer your own question.. The smaller # of entries into the Expert do not warrant an increase in the prize pool because the entries do not even come close to supporting the type of payouts you suggest. 

  not true.

  it's basic economics. 

  If i have a hard time finding someone to work for me at $40 an hour I'll start increasing what I'm offering until i get the type of person i want. It's a losing strategy to drop what I'm offering. 

  Now it's up to them to figure out a balancing point that makes it worth playing under those conditions. 

   

  I mean even if didn't fix the bogey glitch or any thing else i said and merely jumped up the payouts you'd get more people playing in the short term.  Make it to where my risk/reward  is better can mitigate some of the other flaws in how it's set up. 

  But they still need to fix the bogey problem.  that's anywhere from 5-8 stroke swing depending on what courses and holes you get hosed on. you can't make that up. and just about anything that gets hosed by it thinks to themselves it's not worth the risk to 1000cr anymore. because that will immediately knock you out of the top 25. and due to the low payouts in expert that means you lost money.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 11:53 AM

  Mythanatos:

  not true.

  actually this I will disagree with you on.  your analogy of hiring doesn't fit WGT or the showdown event. 

  I can't think of a single example on WGT where they give out more to players than they are earning from entry free or ball use for that event.  

  I know you can't be referring to Clash, TW's, RG's, weekly tournaments, paid entry tournaments... so where in WGT universe do they pay out more than they receive?

  And, we do agree on a number of issues regarding the need to address and fix the problems in general.  As it does effect participation, I believe.  The extent to which I can't say because we don't see the numbers.  Only WGT does.

  --

  BTW, I do feel or think we share many of the same concerns... I don't want to seemingly get stuck debating things that are not offering possible solutions and I hope WGT recognizes there are valid concerns that if addressed could boost participation.

   

• Mythanatos 2,203 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 12:29 PM

  not grasping what I'm saying. 

  They have to provide enough incentive for enough players to play that they still make a profit but players will play. 

  Currently the trend is going down. This number is known by how many people are in expert rooms in any round.

  First showdown there was fairly close to a full 400 than played.

  The final round now has less than 100 in it. Someone told me the number but i forget what it was. I want to say it was in the 60s. that alone shows a drop in participation. Also this number gets smaller and smaller every month.

  the way you look at is is thus: If they thought to themselves hey... we're losing money. lets cut the payout  of first place to 2000 credits and only award the top 3 spots, what do you think that would do to the participation? 

  my point is. fix the bogey bugs. level the playing field so that the variables don't control the outcome as much and player skill is more at play. and increase the payouts to match the %s of the lower tiers.

  then they will probably get 500+ people playing expert every month.

  Right now it's more cost effective to play Veteran. My odds of placing top 10 are much much higher and even if i get bogey bugged My risk is only 100cr.

  To use RGs as an example if you consistently can place top 10 you can make a profit. THat's top 10 out of 50.

  Expert level is in order to make a profit you have to be top 10 out of up to 400 people which is now down to maybe 200. Those aren't great odds when it really comes down to in large part did i get HIgh winds on courses  like st andy and chambers. Or did I get bogey bugged and completely out of it through no fault of my own.

  in that Expert group jsut about anyone can win the thing.. everyone is that good. so the variables matter huge.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 1:20 PM

  Mythanatos:

  not grasping what I'm saying. 

  I think I do, maybe more than you realize. 

  And again, I agree with the need to address the bigger issues or problems.  I think the showdowns are very promising because they offer mobile players who have built up apparel to play for something other than silver coins! 

  The expert division has it's own set of challenges, similar to the 1000cr RG's which can be some of the slowest to fill up.  You don't see those 400 people filling up the 1000cr RG's every day -- and they know the conditions and holes are going to be the same for everyone aside from possible variations in wind.  

  -----

  here is one possible obstacle you may not be considering...

  The type of players that are good enough to play in Expert, including some of those 400 you mention, are also smart enough and well versed enough in the game, to know it isn't practical to wager 1000 credits when the odds are against you, especially right now.

  how many people want to compete against the best .0001% of players in the game. I am probably being generous here.  There may only be another .0001% that want to try.  

  Remember even if there are only 1 million active players out of the 15 million accounts-  400 is the equivalent of .0004% and .00008 of 5M.

  I think you are just dealing with a rather small segment of the WGT community that feels they can compete with that type of player.  That too is one of your obstacles.

  Who in the 99.9996%  or 99.99992% in the rest of the community do you think is silly enough to plunk down 1000 credits when they have no chance to really win?

  I think it is a tough sale and has some obstacles.

  So does WGT cater to the fraction of 1% who don't spend money on the game and win all their credits or does WGT try to lure more of the larger community into the mix?  

• Mythanatos 2,203 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 2:13 PM

  400 players in expert=  400,000 credits

  you need 4000 players in Veteran to equal that take. But the prize payoff is higher in Veteran so for WGT to  make the same profit you probably need 6000 players in Veteran. 

  right now you have to figure that 150-200 of those that would play Expert have moved out and either don't play at all or play veteran or lower. Best case scenario  that's 135000 credits lost  on the revenue side of the books worst case is more like 180,000. (and that's still based on 400 people max playing expert)

   

  every single month. because they won't fix the bogey bug for sure. and potentially for other reasons too. 

  The most profit is in the expert group even if it's a small group. Their goal should be to increase that group size as much as possible. instead the group size is dropping. Every month.

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 4:18 PM

  Mythanatos:

  The most profit is in the expert group even if it's a small group.

  I would agree with this, IF all of the expert players were using or paying for their credits with money (or earning them thru one of the other revenue streams)... BUT, I believe the vast majority of expert level players win their credits... so they recirculate what they may have already won from WGT.  

  Is that not a reasonable belief that the better players are winning their credits especially if they feel competent enough to compete in the expert division?  

  Now based on that, do you feel credits won from WGT tournaments are generating the same kind of revenue for WGT as those bought or earned through surveys, videos or the like?  I don't necessarily view them the same.

  None of this disputes your larger concerns with fixing the bugs... that needs to happen... because not doing so can also have adverse impact on the event, which we feel we already have observed happening.  

  I am just not sure you can attribute revenue to the experts spending credits in the same manner as other players.    Hope that makes sense but it is something I considered a potential factor and there may be things we don't know and can't see that play a role.  We can't see or know everything but share our observations from what we see happening.

   

• BHenke2 397 Posts

  Wed, May 13 2020 5:29 PM

  BOZskills:

  My personal issue is with the champions and tour champions playing in the veteran and even more embarrassing rookie showdowns.

  I'll tell you what. If you cover my 1000 credit entry fee then I will play in every Expert showdown from now on. If not then I will continue to enter the Veteran showdowns whenever I want too. I am not going to spend 1000 credits to get into the Expert division just to get my teeth kicked in by WGT players who win RG's on a regular basis and have thousands of dollars of winnings. I get beat by legends quite often in the coin rooms. So does that mean they are sandbagging because they beat a champion? Nope it just means they are a good player. If you don't like the rules WGT has in place then don't enter the showdowns. 

• pdiehm 285 Posts

  Wed, May 27 2020 4:46 AM

  MattMaher35:

  Mythanatos:

  WGT you're losing money or at least not making what you could.

  The Expert level of showdowns is becoming a desert. 

  Less and less people each month want to play it when they know they have a decent chance of getting glitched 3 bogeys. and it's unrecoverable if it happens in round 1 or 3.

   

  Also the prize credits need to be raised. 1000 credit entry by all players and the top prize should be 20-25k not the 10k that it is. 

  Veteran 100cr entry 2500 top credit prize. 25x the fee.

  Lastly when it comes to the expert group just about anyone can win on any given week. What it boils down to is who probably got the best combination of variables.

  There are too many variables. I get varying wind direction so that people can't talk and give yardages within a club etc.

  But you HAVE to standardize wind strengths and green speeds. 30mph winds on st andy makes scoring more difficult. light winds makes st andy one of the easiest courses in the game.

  And while at it should standardize the pin placement during a showdown. Some pins are significantly more difficult than others on the same green. Pebble 8 is a perfect example.

  So like a tournament you want to vary the wind direction fine. Make everything else the same variables to make it more of an even playing field.

  OR keep doing what you're doing. more players are quitting Expert and stopping totally or dropping down to lower tiers to play every month.

   

  And I on the other hand agree with every point you made. Exactly why I play veteran and not expert.

  I play rookie and I'm fine with it.  After I played Veteran going -15, and not even finishing in the top 10, it's not worth my time, or my hits on the ball to score like that and get nary a reward.  The top 4 in my pool all were -20+....That ruined the showdown for me.

   

• el3n1 4,494 Posts

  Wed, May 27 2020 9:28 AM

  pdiehm:

  The top 4 in my pool all were -20+....That ruined the showdown for me.

  The idea of players trickling down due to the bugs or potential for bugs has led many to reconsider spending 1000 credits or even 100 credits to play expert or for some to play veteran..

  That being said, veteran has always been an expert grouping of players and required you go extremely low... it is just as competitive as the expert division at a lower buy in.

  However, you are also more likely to stumble across hacks/amateur's/pros in the 10k room than players will see in the 100k room.  I suspect veteran players could be slightly more susceptible to getting players closing or exiting without doing so properly which could prompt the bugs or glitches being observed, which further impacts their standings in their division.

  Remember, you are playing forward tees, with most people using maxed out apparel.  eagle is the new birdie and birdie is the new par.  

• pdiehm 285 Posts

  Wed, May 27 2020 10:59 AM

  i don't use apparel.  only a driver hat and glove.  I find it messes me up more than I already am :)