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Re: New WGT Calculator in Progress

Wed, Mar 27 2019 5:29 PM by goldeena. 29 replies.
  • Bernie395 United States
    576 Posts
    Mon, Apr 9 2018 9:04 AM

    Signet7 - I started this game just over a year ago and after a few weeks of playing I went down the same path that you're heading down now...building my own shot calculation spreadsheet.  I'm also an engineer and love spreadsheets so I did a lot of research on the forums, downloaded a few shot calculators that other people had built and used them as a basis for my own shot calculation spreadsheet.

    After tweaking that spreadsheet for my own equipment I found it worked very well.  At lower levels, when I used the spreadsheet, it was pretty rare that I wasn't within 10 feet of the pin on my approach shots.  The accuracy of that spreadsheet seemed to get worse once I hit higher levels and was able to buy more advanced equipment and balls.  Somewhere when my level hit the mid 80's I stopped using the spreadsheet entirely because it became increasingly difficult to tune the spreadsheet to my new equipment.  I knew my equipment would keep changing a lot until I hit level 100 so I stopped using my spreadsheet and planned to go back to it after I "finalized" my equipment.

    I ended up playing without a spreadsheet for about 7 months.  When I hit level 100 I felt that my equipment was pretty solid and wouldn't be changing very much so I tried going back to the spreadsheet.  I spent about 2 weeks trying to tune my spreadsheet to my new equipment.  What I found is that I could tune it pretty well for a few courses, but it didn't work well for all courses like it used to for me when I was a lower level player.  I'm not sure if WGT throws some additional penalties / calculations as you level up and tier up, or if the game variables are just more complicated with the higher level of spin / precision / forgiveness of the equipment and the higher spin rates on the balls.  After trying to tune the spreadsheet for 2 weeks I quit using it again. 

    I will say I enjoy playing without a spreadsheet a lot more than I do with it.  Once you get good course experience and understand how the different holes and greens play with your equipment, you'll find you can play this game very well by feel and a few simple calculations that you can do in your head.  

    If you still intend to go down the spreadsheet route add me as a friend and send me a message.  I'd be happy to send you my spreadsheet.  If nothing else you can look at some of the formulas / variables and use whatever makes sense.

    I think for any shot calculation spreadsheet to be effective you'd have to find a way to account for all the equipment and ball stats and allow for individual course variables to be input that would help account for their differences in wind effect, fairway roll and green speed.

    Good luck!

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  • dadddioooo United States
    16 Posts
    Tue, Mar 26 2019 7:03 AM

    This is spot on. While the norm is to try to find the uphill putt, what’s best is finding the putt with the least amount of break. Putting well is the difference between a 60 and a 65. We are not always going to land the ball inside of 6 feet, and when we do those putts are not always gimmees. I try to remember where the “sweet”spots on the green are, and while not always the shortest putt, they are usually the ones most easily made. Enjoyed you post on the subject.

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  • meresi Austria
    73 Posts
    Tue, Mar 26 2019 10:30 AM

    Hi,

    i am not the best player around here. but want to point out: think about apex as well. the influence of head or tailwind is quite different to the different apex irons might have. even crosswind will need a different calculation due to the varying apexs irons have. my calculations of head/tail and crosswind are not linear. regarding putting i have my own calculator. the different stimp or greenspeed will influence the breaks.  but whats the use of all of it, if my biggest problem still remains hitting the ding constantly. hitting the ding proofs most of my calculations right.

    have fun

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  • Redmonod United States
    9 Posts
    Tue, Mar 26 2019 12:16 PM

    This is where trying to build a model (in a spreadsheet, since I’m not a coder) of ball flight can come in handy. I have used such a model to simulate each club’s behavior (including the putter) and try to match it up with yardages, wind, course variations, apex heights, etc. for my clubs and my ball. It’s like trying to peer inside the black box of WGT and figure out how their simulation works. What can I say - it’s fun for me!

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  • meresi Austria
    73 Posts
    Tue, Mar 26 2019 2:23 PM

    have a look at this, there are some rules how putting greens should be build incl. max slope and green speed

    http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2008/080721.pdf

    meresi

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  • goldeena Thailand
    1,596 Posts
    Tue, Mar 26 2019 4:31 PM

    meresi:

    Hi,

    i am not the best player around here. but want to point out: think about apex as well. the influence of head or tailwind is quite different to the different apex irons might have. even crosswind will need a different calculation due to the varying apexs irons have. my calculations of head/tail and crosswind are not linear. regarding putting i have my own calculator. the different stimp or greenspeed will influence the breaks.  but whats the use of all of it, if my biggest problem still remains hitting the ding constantly. hitting the ding proofs most of my calculations right.

    have fun

     

    All true - I tend not to work from first principles (who knows what 'first principles' this game utilizes in the first place), it has always been a chain of transfer functions and logic steering with me. Indeed individual clubs have different trajectories which means the headwind/ tailwinds [and side winds], cannot be encompassed with one formula fits all, but I do take the fundamental agreed truths here - the 60% and 40% rules for head and tail, then comes club and ball compensations and it is within the ball compensation that any additional wind compensation will find itself added 'implicitly', that is to say those tables of supposed ball coefficients that tell my F-117 table what to do not only contain ball compensations by way of exact-extraction from the game, or progressive fine tuning based upon in game results, they will also include additional wind compensations across clubs.

    It is pretty much impossible to separate those 2 additional compensations without modelling from first principles and pretty needless too - as long as an individual club coefficient is bringing the ball closer to pin I will always accept the fact that I don't actually know what is the exact ball compensation and what is a compensation due to the trajectory of the club.

    My club compensations are another thing but those are compensations for the lossy nature of a club as you hit it with less and less power (again due to trajectory).

     

    The sidewinds are another story - I think you have to note general tendencies in-game, i.e. a hole that runs along the open shores of RSG might tend to play 1.5-2.0 x what your lat wind offset is saying. I have a long term statistical gathering of coefficients going on right now that I hope brings the lat-winds under more predictive control but there ill always be holes where you need to give it some extra and you will just have to find them and make notes.

     

    deena.

     

    ***Latest development has been to convert JC Sneads 2/3rd-to-1/3rd split on the first putting square in to a linear measure for much more convenient on-screen measurement, this will be detailed in a separate document later in the week***

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  • Redmonod United States
    9 Posts
    Wed, Mar 27 2019 4:45 AM

    Thanks for posting this. I also found this as part of my research. There are a lot of sources online and in books about the physics of ball flight and the roll of balls on greens. But there’s also a lot of guesswork and experimentation hitting practice balls. I’m constantly trying to adjust my model to get better results.

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  • SeabrookFlash United States
    420 Posts
    Wed, Mar 27 2019 6:11 AM

    Oh My Goodness !! Reading all this stuff just gives me a headache.I must admit that all the calculation aids, spread sheets and other tools that are available to players can separate the very top tier players from the also rans.  Speaking as a person who flunked math multiple times in school and as a WGT player who has been playing the game before shot pal and putter pal came into existance. I want to just throw out the idea that this game can be played with no aids what so ever. The only "aid" I have ever used is my pocket calculator to add or subtract distances on the green and that is because I don't see the point in removing my socks and counting on my fingers and toes the the distance to try and hit my putts. Repitition, repitition, repitition and practice, practice, practice have served me quite well and I have risen to a much higher level in this game than I ever imagined that I could. Surely I won't reach the pinnicle in this game playing the way I do but I am quite happy with where I am without worrying about my charts, graphs, and spreadsheets. I sort of liken my game here on WGT to the way Lee Trevino used to play on the PGA tour.  He would walk up to the ball and take a quick look and give it a whack.  

    I'm not exactly sure why I felt the need to share this but here it is for all it's worth.  I am reminded that free advice is usually worth exactly what you pay for it.

    The Flash has left the building.

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  • Redmonod United States
    9 Posts
    Wed, Mar 27 2019 9:31 AM

    I am truly in awe of players that play by feel that gets developed by playing 1000’s of rounds. In the long run they will probably be more successful, since they can learn the effects of more variables than I could ever come to grips with in a spreadsheet. But even if I could play that way, I just really enjoy the challenge of developing models and testing them in tournament play.

    Goldeena, you are very right about wind effects. I suspect that WGT uses a vector mapping of each course that allows them to calculate the wind force on the ball at any 3D point of each course, just like they will have a vector model of the terrain that specifies the “bounciness” and friction at every point. The data you’re collecting would be the only way to approximate the effects of side wind in a spreadsheet or computer program. I applaud your tenacity. I use a combination of ball flight modeling and rule of thumb algorithms to calculate side wind effect, and then adjust a bit on holes that seem to need it (I can’t totally get away from “feel” LOL).

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  • goldeena Thailand
    1,596 Posts
    Wed, Mar 27 2019 5:29 PM

    Redmonod:

    I am truly in awe of players that play by feel that gets developed by playing 1000’s of rounds. In the long run they will probably be more successful, since they can learn the effects of more variables than I could ever come to grips with in a spreadsheet. But even if I could play that way, I just really enjoy the challenge of developing models and testing them in tournament play.

    Goldeena, you are very right about wind effects. I suspect that WGT uses a vector mapping of each course that allows them to calculate the wind force on the ball at any 3D point of each course, just like they will have a vector model of the terrain that specifies the “bounciness” and friction at every point. The data you’re collecting would be the only way to approximate the effects of side wind in a spreadsheet or computer program. I applaud your tenacity. I use a combination of ball flight modeling and rule of thumb algorithms to calculate side wind effect, and then adjust a bit on holes that seem to need it (I can’t totally get away from “feel” LOL).

     

     

    New Friends :-)

     

     

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