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Re: Cheaters kicked out?

Mon, Jun 17 2019 7:43 PM by JasonDurham. 262 replies.
  • YankeeJim United States
    24,381 Posts
    Tue, Jun 11 2019 4:25 PM

    WGTChampion:

    Okay so how does this translate to VEM? 

    VEM is in place to help, not to hurt. If a player is playing poorly VEM will kick in and do slight corrections. It's not going to save a ball aimed at the water, but it may give a small forgiveness boost to help. On the other end it's not going to make a terrible putt magically go into the cup. 

    Once the player begins to play a little better VEM will drop out and the player will be on their own again. 

    VEM does NOT target any specific player to make sure they lose a ball or have a bad round. It's quite the opposite. VEM is here to help. 

    Does this help explain some stuff? 

    I haven't been following this thread-cheater threads went out of vogue some time ago for me-but I was referenced here by another thread and with out a doubt, this is the best, most succinct way of describing how VEM works in this game that I have read since it was discovered.

    Very well stated, C.  :-)

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  • DodgyPutter United Kingdom
    3,276 Posts
    Wed, Jun 12 2019 2:44 PM

    YankeeJim:

    WGTChampion:

    Okay so how does this translate to VEM? 

    VEM is in place to help, not to hurt. If a player is playing poorly VEM will kick in and do slight corrections. It's not going to save a ball aimed at the water, but it may give a small forgiveness boost to help. On the other end it's not going to make a terrible putt magically go into the cup. 

    Once the player begins to play a little better VEM will drop out and the player will be on their own again. 

    VEM does NOT target any specific player to make sure they lose a ball or have a bad round. It's quite the opposite. VEM is here to help. 

    Does this help explain some stuff? 

    I haven't been following this thread-cheater threads went out of vogue some time ago for me-but I was referenced here by another thread and with out a doubt, this is the best, most succinct way of describing how VEM works in this game that I have read since it was discovered.

    Very well stated, C.  :-)

     

    The odd thing to me is that people who say VEM is on mostly talk about it's negative effects.  The quoted post from Champion says that it doesn't have one, VEM is in place to help, not to hurt. 

    But then I gave up on this thread once already, people will believe what they want. I still think the best quote is from Pizza: "The natural reaction that humans come to when they think they have all their bases covered but still fail is transference."

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  • el3n1 United States
    2,391 Posts
    Thu, Jun 13 2019 8:52 AM

    DodgyPutter:
    The quoted post from Champion says that it doesn't have one, VEM is in place to help, not to hurt. 

    We have talked on this but instead of rambling on I will try this something else... a couple questions maybe...

    Since VEM can be viewed to be in place to help.... let's say you play the game 90% of the time with VEM that is helping YOU... you play well, you shoot good scores... etc...

    How would you view the game differently if ALL of a sudden that help was turned down or shut off?  To me, it stands to reason a player will naturally observe more variance than they "normally would" when they are being helped by VEM.

    So, is it even remotely possible you would view the game playing differently when you are NOT being helped by VEM than when you ARE?  

    The other layer to the cake is the motivations behind VEM and it's use... and for that I believe is what WGTChampion was stating that the purpose or intention-- is not to hurt players. 

    I don't believe he said players could not or would not ever interpret the lack of helping VEM as seemingly hurting them, it just is not designed with that intention...

     

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  • YankeeJim United States
    24,381 Posts
    Thu, Jun 13 2019 10:32 AM

    el3n1:
    So, is it even remotely possible you would view the game playing differently when you are NOT being helped by VEM than when you ARE?  

    I do and it does. VEM is stroke based and depends on having posted ranked rounds to look at and work effectively.  Therefore, a logical assumption would be that unless you're playing a ranked stroke game, VEM doesn't even know you're playing and you would be looking at the actual deviation in your equipment. (I don't know this to be a fact but VEM needs the numbers to work so I'm assuming it as nothing you do in AS rounds affects your stats.)

    I use Alternate Shot games as the best example. I have over 9000 games played in AS and only 4900 scored rounds. I see a huge difference in the way the game plays between the 2 formats. I can finish an AS round and then go and play a stroke game and it's like playing a different game. I understand why, too, I'm up against my own history. 

     

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  • DodgyPutter United Kingdom
    3,276 Posts
    Thu, Jun 13 2019 11:47 AM

    el3n1:

    Since VEM can be viewed to be in place to help.... let's say you play the game 90% of the time with VEM that is helping YOU... you play well, you shoot good scores... etc...

    How would you view the game differently if ALL of a sudden that help was turned down or shut off?

    Lol, my first reply conceded the remote possibility.........

    But then I thought, this is about champ saying it only helps, and then only when you're playing poorly.  How you play 90% of the time would be how you normally play, the 5% on either end would be the unusual times and one of those would see "VEM" used if it was like has been suggested.  So you'd be playing 95% of the time without vem.

    el3n1:

    The other layer to the cake is the motivations behind VEM and it's use... and for that I believe is what WGTChampion was stating that the purpose or intention-- is not to hurt players. 

    I don't believe he said players could not or would not ever interpret the lack of helping VEM as seemingly hurting them, it just is not designed with that intention...

    I'm not quite clear what you're saying there, not to hurt players isn't really a motivation, do you mean to help players? I would certainly see that as a very likely motive in whatever wgt do.

    I imagine a lot of people play the games that they think they are, or will become, good at. If they're not then they try something else. It would certainly be in wgt's interest to help players believe this game is for them.  A bit like better equipment really, it helps us score lower so we think we're getting better but really it's the game getting easier. So for that they sell more accurate, longer, more forgiving and easier to ding clubs. 

    The second paragpaph too I'm not sure about, surely he can't say what players can or will interpret anything as.

    Sadly I've read the VEM patent and very roughly and in short; it sounded to me like if you were playing well/badly (scoring consistantly under/over your average) then the sweet spot got smaller or bigger. That's in relation to the individual player.

    What wgt also give us is things like variation in the wind, precision, deviation and whatever I've forgotten that mean the same dinged shot, in the same conditions, from the same spot will not always land in the same place (a good thing too I think).  Some call that VEM.  We have forgiveness helping us when we don't ding, is that the  "little forgiveness boost" that's mentioned.

    It was suggested by other mod's that the vem patent was indeed used to build variation into the game in general and equipment in particular but that's not targeting the inividual. (Whenever you equip a club, it’s performance/output will NEVER change based on your score, a tournament, who you are playing or, most importantly, your tier.) 

    I know that Champ has moved the debate away from this and suggested vem does affect people on an individual basis, and I'm not saying he's wrong, but I'm certainly surprised.

    However you dress it  he says only positive VEM is on, so do you believe that?

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  • el3n1 United States
    2,391 Posts
    Thu, Jun 13 2019 1:29 PM

    #YJ... haven't looked at or considered difference in AS and regular ranked rounds, appreciate additional input...  my primary experience and observations are ranked rounds and ready go play.

     

    #dodgy … let's say your wife, significant other, or partner ask you to go shopping with them... they try on an ill fitting pair of pants and ask "do I look fat in these"?   

    please, no one take offense here, I am just trying to describe or illustrate how certain types of question can require being framed or answered in particular ways without causing a riot or end up leaving you sleep on the couch....  sometimes a carefully worded comment may give a reasonable answer without going into the minute details.

    I am not the voice of WGT or Champion.  So, I am not going to go any further trying to answer how they meant something to be read or interpreted.  And to be honest, I am inclined to believe no matter what they would say there will still be someone else trying to distort what was said.  

    A person could give one simple sentence and it could still be interpreted in many different ways depending on various factors involved.  It is partly why philosophers and linguists would spend seemingly entire chapters or books describing what they mean when they use a particular word... because that word can take on different meanings for different people.  

    In the meantime, I need to get some practice in and maybe play a few rounds to gauge whether I am due for one of those good rounds or bad rounds : )  I was slightly hopeful I might be able to help view it from another angle but seems I fell short.  Sorry about that.  I did try though.  Maybe one of these days I will figure it out.  

     

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  • cretedawg United States
    507 Posts
    Sat, Jun 15 2019 11:21 AM
    only cheaters on this site is wgt lmao
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  • JasonDurham United States
    213 Posts
    Sat, Jun 15 2019 7:19 PM

    Let me play bad guy here, first VEM only helping a player is very very hard to believe. Iv seen way to many shoots go haywire for no reason other than VEM. Second... how often does WGT check this part of the coding? How easy would it be for VEM to get off on its calculations and start hurting players!!!! Champ makes VEM sound like a learning AI ??????

    I have a Very hard time believing this!

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  • SimonTheBeetle Korea (South)
    721 Posts
    Sat, Jun 15 2019 7:24 PM

    DodgyPutter:
    I've read the VEM patent and very roughly and in short; it sounded to me like if you were playing well/badly (scoring consistantly under/over your average) then the sweet spot got smaller or bigger. That's in relation to the individual player.

    +1

    This is what I understood from reading the VEM patent as well. I always thought VEM was a "zero-sum game" so I was quite surprised when Champ said it's in place to help, not to hurt.

    The presence of VEM is most apparent during putting and iron shot to the green. There are moments you thought you missed your putts but it drops in, you know the ones you know you didn't deserve, but there are also moments you feel as if the size of hole has got so small that nothing goes in no matter what you do. The same goes with iron shots. Sometimes on every shot, the ball sticks to the pin and other (most) times, it's a mission impossible to bring it inside of the 3-yard circle.

    Just accept it as a part of the game and play on.

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  • Wutpa Canada
    3,373 Posts
    Sat, Jun 15 2019 9:38 PM

    cretedawg:
    only cheaters on this site is wgt lmao

    *crickets*

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